#$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

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Jinxmutt
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#$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by Jinxmutt »

What a piece of junk. David Norton just received an email from me filled with absolute disappointment in their clutch. I swapped out my LC-1 wideband yesterday for the AEM gauge type that I bought so I can monitor more easily from in the car. Well after calibrating the EMS we figured we would take the car out and see where I feedback % is at to compare the readings between the LC-1 and the AEM. Well oddly enough, the AFR and feedback were about spot on where they used to be. I have my fuel map tuned so that the O2 feedback is always pulling 3-5% of fuel. I have the feedback turned off over 5psi and it uses the boost comp tables in an 'open loop' sort of operation. Well at 15-16psi the fueling looked great so we decided to try a little more boost. Normally, I have my boost target set to 19psi and my fuel cut at 22psi to prevent over boost, but yet still allow for a small spike should the controller overshoot a bit. Well we decided to target 20 and as soon as boost came on in 4th gear the clutch is 'shuddering'. Its not slipping and letting go but more of a vibration as it slips just enough. Once the RPMs come through peak torque at around 4500 it seems to be fine and hold but its hard to tell.

It will be really interesting to see what they have to say and what they want to do about this situation. I don't know what I'm expecting from them but either way, this damn thing has to come out and THAT is a pain in the ass.
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TheFieroBoy
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Re: #$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by TheFieroBoy »

Another disgruntled former SPEC clutch owner here.

When I installed the FWD Getrag in my Fiero, I put a SPEC Stage 2 on it. The clutch is rated for 275 ft-lb, and my 2.8 V6 at the time was putting down about 180 ft-lb to the wheels (about 200-205 ft-lb at the flywheel). So the clutch should've been able to handle the engine with no problem. But a year after I bought it, it started slipping on hard launches (at the drag strip). Six months after that, it was slipping so bad I had to drive like grandma.

Keep in mind that I don't abuse my clutch. And I only went to the drag strip 3 times (8 passes total), and 2 autocross events. Despite that, the clutch only lasted for about 20K miles, about 1/3 of which was highway cruising.

My new clutch is from Clutchnet. It isn't broken in yet, so I'm withholding judgment.
Last edited by TheFieroBoy on Mon May 18, 2009 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jinxmutt
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Re: #$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by Jinxmutt »

Fastest reply yet....

Here is my closing paragraph to the email I sent..

"I really hope there is some way we come to an agreement to do something about this situation. If I blindly bought this clutch from your website I can understand where I might not have purchased the proper unit. We worked for quite some time to choose the proper clutch and it is clearly NOT suitable for the application. Most of the guys on our message forum initially suggested I purchase a clutchnet unit back when my old one started to go. I had years of nothing but good performance from my first SPEC clutch and chose to stay with your company hoping this purchase would be as rewarding. Unfortunately, as of now, that doesn't seem to be the case. So I guess my question is, where do I go from here? The 3+ and higher pressure plate are simply not holding."

His reply:

"We can go stronger if you’re willing to forego some drivability. How many miles are on the unit ? At what power level are you now ?

Good luck with a Chinese Clutchnet. They don’t offer anything with the load or friction coefficient of what you have today.

Also, where is the pedal engagement ?

David Norton"

and I replied...

"I am most certainly willing to give up some drivability but my wallet is not willing to forego another $700 to replace the unit I recently bought. The clutch has about 3500 miles on it at the very most but that includes drives to/from school which are 800 miles each way, from CT to NC. I haven't had a chance to get the car on a dyno but I would estimate the car is making a peak 500hp and 450tq or so from what I've seen other cars making. The pedal releases halfway in the throw. Its a hydraulic unit so there is no cable adjustment. I don't have to push the pedal to the floor but it does take an inch or so to get stiff and then another 2" or so to fully disengage. The clutch operation feels exactly the same with this unit as it did before."
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crzyone
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Re: #$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by crzyone »

I have to say, 450lb/ft through a single plate clutch is pretty amazing.

It might be worth looking into a flexplate and a 2 or 3 disc clutch. I don't think you will find reliability with a single plate with that amount of power.
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TheFieroBoy
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Re: #$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by TheFieroBoy »

crzyone wrote:I have to say, 450lb/ft through a single plate clutch is pretty amazing.

It might be worth looking into a flexplate and a 2 or 3 disc clutch. I don't think you will find reliability with a single plate with that amount of power.
Good point.

You should look into a twin-plate clutch.
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Shaun41178(2)
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Re: #$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

crzyone wrote:I have to say, 450lb/ft through a single plate clutch is pretty amazing.

It might be worth looking into a flexplate and a 2 or 3 disc clutch. I don't think you will find reliability with a single plate with that amount of power.
I am thinking this too. You are just making way too much power. for a single disk.

What I would do is drive it around for a bit and for whatever reason it might fix itself although I doubt it. I had a slipping clutch at 10 psi andnitrous on my current motor, and I drove easy for about 500 miles and its now holding 15 psi and the same amount of nitrous as before maybe more. just a suggestion.
FieroPhrek working on that ls4 swap for 18 years and counting now. 18 years!!!!! LOL

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slowpoke
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Re: #$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by slowpoke »

If he consulted with a spec rep and was advised to buy this clutch then spec should make things right, either with a refund, or replaceing the clutch he bought with the proper unit, this shouldn't cost him a dime unless the proper clutch is more expensive than the one they sold him, and if you consider his labor for haveing to install another clutch it shouldn't cost him shit, period.
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Re: #$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by p8ntman442 »

slowpoke wrote:If he consulted with a spec rep and was advised to buy this clutch then spec should make things right, either with a refund, or replaceing the clutch he bought with the proper unit, this shouldn't cost him a dime unless the proper clutch is more expensive than the one they sold him, and if you consider his labor for haveing to install another clutch it shouldn't cost him shit, period.
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slowpoke
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Re: #$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by slowpoke »

Its great, chocolate streets and shit.
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Re: #$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

crzyone wrote:I have to say, 450lb/ft through a single plate clutch is pretty amazing.

It might be worth looking into a flexplate and a 2 or 3 disc clutch. I don't think you will find reliability with a single plate with that amount of power.
Ditto. Among the other problems associated with the GM FWD transmissions is the clutch packaging. You can also go up to 9 11/16" diameter, but that will slow down your shifts. I have a preliminary design for a button flywheel for a Tilton clutch. PM me. I *might* have time to work through the initial design with you before I mobilize. I think you have access to the machining and fab facilities to get the parts produced.

http://realfierotech.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3376
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Shaun41178(2)
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Re: #$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

slowpoke wrote:Its great, chocolate streets and shit.
hahhaa reminded me of this.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7mjep ... shortfilms
FieroPhrek working on that ls4 swap for 18 years and counting now. 18 years!!!!! LOL

530 whp is greater than 312
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Shaun41178(2)
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Re: #$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Ditto. Among the other problems associated with the GM FWD transmissions is the clutch packaging. You can also go up to 9 11/16" diameter, but that will slow down your shifts.
yup. when I went from the stock size clutchnet to the larger WCF unit, I could no longer powershift. Just not able to shift it fast enough after the larger clutch was installed. So now I actually have to let up off the gas which is a bummer.
FieroPhrek working on that ls4 swap for 18 years and counting now. 18 years!!!!! LOL

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Jinxmutt
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Re: #$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by Jinxmutt »

Finally got around to pulling the tranny out again last night. The clutch disc looks like trash..

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Here are some pics of my 'amazing' tires that I used when I ran the 11.8@125.88. Yes the clutch slipped before these granite things did. Here is the tire rack page on these tires, read the reviews!! LOL

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp ... ot+HX+MXM4

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So what do you guys think? Install error, user error, oil covered, mechanical failure, or simply overpowered?? I'm interested to see what type of reply SPEC gives me when they see the pics...
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Re: #$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Are you going to send them back the disk?

3 little words can fix this...


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Re: #$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

I say overpowered. No sign of oil anywhere. you can actually see the clutch material melted in some spots and how it was actually being sheared from itself.

Awesome pics too man. That camera did a good job up close. I think you are at the limit of a single disk. At least tq wise. If you can find a way to eliminate some of the tq, but make it up in upper rpm hp, then you might be able to use a single disk that will hold. Or try the stage 4 or 5 or whatever least streetable clutch they have and see what happens.
FieroPhrek working on that ls4 swap for 18 years and counting now. 18 years!!!!! LOL

530 whp is greater than 312
Jinxmutt
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Re: #$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by Jinxmutt »

Yeah, I think I'm about done with this thing. I already bought my auto trans but I'm saving up the money to rebuild it and make sure that is going to be mint before I start building a new turbo hot side. I really want to get this thing into the 10s with a manual transmission. I honestly feel that I have the power to do it and that I can set the car up so that it will launch decently hard. The only problem I have right now is that I can't put the slightest bit of a performance tire on this thing since the clutch is such junk. Spec has the pictures so its just a matter of time before they get back to me. Either they'll make the situation right, in which case I'll respect their customer service department, or they tell me to fly a kite and I'll do all I can to steer people away from them.

This car can either go fast with a SPEC clutch, or go fast with no manual clutch at all. Ball is in their court now.
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Re: #$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Tilton :-D
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Emc209i
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Re: #$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by Emc209i »

Lol. Your clutch looks like my rear tires (burnout). 10 second run would be nice... but. .... idk. standing by.
Jinxmutt
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Re: #$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by Jinxmutt »

So I never heard back from spec. Instead, I decided to call them. Just as anyone would expect, here is what they had to say...

There is a cloudiness and a grey tone to the unit. The grey of the material indicates that it has certainly gotten hot. The cloudiness however, is a sure sign of contamination.

CONTAMINATION? I bitched and moaned on the phone until he finally decided to give me a RMA so I can send the disc back. He said there was nothing he can do and it didn't matter that the car was a DD. They need the disc for any warranty issue. All I fucking want is what I first paid well over $600 for, a damn disc that would hold. If David Norton sold me a disc that would hold 500+ or whatever the hell I'm making (Can't dyno with it slipping in 4th), then we wouldn't have this issue. What a joke....

Oh and the kicker... They close the plant from June 26-July 7th for the Holiday...
p8ntman442
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Re: #$@&*!!! SPEC Frisbee about to go through the window...

Post by p8ntman442 »

No they close the plant because sales are down. wonder why?
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