Concept to Realization

Fiero topics such as vendor reviews experiences, car shows, Fiero buys acquisitions, Fiero Photography.

Moderator: Series8217

User avatar
Identity Crisis
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:12 pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta CANADA

Concept to Realization

Post by Identity Crisis »

Hello fellas,

Here is what I have in mind over the next few years and what some of the ideas I am considering.

I have wanted an 87 Fiero GT Black and Silver ever since I saw one in person at the local Pontiac Dealership when I was a teen. I have waited a long time to get the exact one I wanted and I did. I was very poor for a long time and now not so much, but not rich by any means. I have always loved great cars. Having 4 older brothers all into cars helped a lot. I have owned many cars over the years, in order are; 82 Pontiac Firebird SE V8, 87 Cavlier, 92 Firefly, 88 Z24, 89 Z24, 94 Z24, 03 Z24 4dr, 05 Dodge Magnum, 92 Ford Probe, 96 Pontiac GTP, 09 Pontiac G8 GT, 12 Fiat Abarth, 12 Fiat 500 Lounge, 14 Fiat 500L and now my 87 Fiero GT and of course through those years a bunch of other Cavaliers that I just ended up stripping or selling.

Now keep in mind a few things. I am not new at the automotive world, this is not my first time picking up a wrench. I run an 8 Bay garage with a prep bay and a down draft bake booth. I have done engine swaps before. 3800 L67 into a 96 GTP, 2001 L67 into a 98 Cavalier just to name two, I have lots of experience in doing custom stuff. Can weld, torch etc etc. But I am no master expert here and like anyone I can miss things or not think of them. That is why I ask those that have done it before for help in their knowledge.

Step one- Restoration. My 87 GT as good of a shape that it is in, is in no way perfect. I have started my restoration already. It will get a complete Engine (Gaskets), Ignition, Coolant, Oils, Brakes, Suspension and Paint job. As well as an interior refurbished.

Step two- Performance upgrades. Now I am talking about engine/transmission. I was thinking of going the route of a 3500 and maybe running boost. I currently have two 3500 V6 and transmissions and harness computer etc. So this makes a logical choice, as well I have three Superchargers to choose from. Yes I know Turbo is easier to do. But I do like SC and I am experienced in it.
I also am considering the 3800 series of engines. I have a 3800 L36 currently in great shape and I also have all of the components individually to turn it into an L67 with higher compression. Or I could run the L36 then later turn it into a Twin Turbo beast.

Step three- Body. I would like to keep the overall body stock. I just would like to have a couple of scoops and an extractor over the engine.

Step four- (2017, timeline for its 30th BD) Maybe go even bigger into the V6 range or swap into a V8. Would love to drop in an LS7 but I don't think that will happen.

So here is what I am asking you guys.

In all of my stages can you suggest to me options and ideas based on your experiences that I should maybe consider. I do have a budget for every year, so the less I spend the better for me.

Thanks in advance for your help guys.
Last edited by Identity Crisis on Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2015 Dodge Journey RT Rally AWD
2014 Dodge Ram 1500 Sport
1992 Pontiac Grand Prix STE
1987 Pontiac Fiero GT
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT
The Dark Side of Will
Peer Mediator
Posts: 15610
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: In the darkness, where fear and knowing are one
Contact:

Re: Concept to Realization

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

No more Northstar?

What in particular did you have in mind for suspension restoration?
User avatar
Identity Crisis
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:12 pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta CANADA

Re: Concept to Realization

Post by Identity Crisis »

The Dark Side of Will wrote:No more Northstar?

What in particular did you have in mind for suspension restoration?
Northstar is on a back burner cause I only have a 95 and from what the N* experts are saying I need an 02 or newer to really get it to work right.

Suspension I am thinking honestly KYB and Eibach Prokit. I just know I wont be happy with stock OEM like the Monroe give. I used to sell them and never liked them.

As well I will replace the strut mounts with new parts. Anything that I can not find a performance upgrade will still get an upgrade. ie MOOG for Ball Joints, tierods etc.

I already have the complete Poly Kit sitting and waiting for the rest of the gear.
2015 Dodge Journey RT Rally AWD
2014 Dodge Ram 1500 Sport
1992 Pontiac Grand Prix STE
1987 Pontiac Fiero GT
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT
User avatar
crzyone
JDM Power FTW
Posts: 4654
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:40 am
Location: Whitecourt, Alberta, Canada

Re: Concept to Realization

Post by crzyone »

I'm pretty sure I've done the first 2000+ Northstar and I say the 99 and prior are the way to go. Will and Sinister have taken away 99% of the headache of a N* swap with the Shelby ecu.

Personally I would go with a 99 or older N* and be happy with it. If you can get a low mileage N* that is 99 or older I say it is the perfect swap. 300+ hp, fuel economy and plenty of power. Plus some upgrade options from chrfab.
The Dark Side of Will
Peer Mediator
Posts: 15610
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: In the darkness, where fear and knowing are one
Contact:

Re: Concept to Realization

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Identity Crisis wrote:
The Dark Side of Will wrote:No more Northstar?

What in particular did you have in mind for suspension restoration?
Northstar is on a back burner cause I only have a 95 and from what the N* experts are saying I need an 02 or newer to really get it to work right.
What experts said that?
User avatar
Identity Crisis
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:12 pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta CANADA

Re: Concept to Realization

Post by Identity Crisis »

This is my first and most recent email from sinister.

"unfortunately there is currently no custom tuning software available that works with any Gen1 Northstar PCM that is compatible with a 4T80-E trans, OBD1 or OBD2. You are stuck with the stock programming.
I can custom tune a 99 LS1 PCM that uses the Shelby 4.0 Aurora code so it will run a 4.6L Northstar, but it won’t also operate the 4T80-E trans without a lot of work that I’m not about to attempt thru-the-mail. (Which is to say at this point I’m not even sure it CAN run a 4T80-E trans).
If you had a Gen2 Northstar engine, we can get tuning software that will work with 2006-newer Northstar ECM/TCM systems. But your Gen1 engine will not work with these newer systems."

And the latest one I got said this.
"If you go with a manual transmission, yes, you can use the 95 engine so long as you install a 96-99 throttle body (that has an IAC valve) on it. This will allow you to use the 99 Shelby LS1 Aurora PCM.
Of course, the Shelby PCM will still require a bit of tuning work to get it to run the 95 Northstar correctly – and this is not going to be a 1-time and it’s done process. You will need to get me scan data (might require a laptop/pc and possibly some expensive scanning software)."

So this says to me go with a 3800 as it wont be as much trouble... And the fact that I can stay Automatic.
2015 Dodge Journey RT Rally AWD
2014 Dodge Ram 1500 Sport
1992 Pontiac Grand Prix STE
1987 Pontiac Fiero GT
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT
The Dark Side of Will
Peer Mediator
Posts: 15610
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: In the darkness, where fear and knowing are one
Contact:

Re: Concept to Realization

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Wester's Garage has claimed to be able to tune the OBDI Northstar computer for a long time.

http://westersgarage.eidnet.ca/
http://westersgarage.eidnet.ca/GM.html
http://www.westersgarageforum.com/

He also has listings for the '96-'99 and '00-'03 computers, as well as newer applications.
Other than knowing of his existence and an occasional conversation on the GMECM list *YEARS* ago, I don't have any association with him, beyond knowing that he has been around for years.
The Dark Side of Will
Peer Mediator
Posts: 15610
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: In the darkness, where fear and knowing are one
Contact:

Re: Concept to Realization

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Do you know what the service history of your engine is?
User avatar
Aaron
I just wanna ride my motorcycle
Posts: 5957
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:15 am
Contact:

Re: Concept to Realization

Post by Aaron »

Why would you do all that work to your 2.8l when you're just going to swap it out? If it's running like it should, leave it alone.
88GT 3.4 DOHC Turbo
Gooch wrote:Way to go douche. You are like a one-man, fiero-destroying machine.
The Dark Side of Will
Peer Mediator
Posts: 15610
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: In the darkness, where fear and knowing are one
Contact:

Re: Concept to Realization

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Aaron wrote:Why would you do all that work to your 2.8l when you're just going to swap it out? If it's running like it should, leave it alone.
He really hasn't outlined more than a long day or short weekend's worth of work to the 2.8.
The Dark Side of Will
Peer Mediator
Posts: 15610
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: In the darkness, where fear and knowing are one
Contact:

Re: Concept to Realization

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Identity Crisis wrote: Suspension I am thinking honestly KYB and Eibach Prokit. I just know I wont be happy with stock OEM like the Monroe give. I used to sell them and never liked them.
I don't have specific experience with the Eibachs as I'm running rear coil overs and stock front springs, but I would recommend Konis over KYB's
User avatar
Emc209i
Posts: 1466
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:31 am
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: Concept to Realization

Post by Emc209i »

Identity Crisis wrote:So this says to me go with a 3800 as it wont be as much trouble... And the fact that I can stay Automatic.
And this is my line of reasoning also, which I conveyed in another post. Will and cryzone are good guys, and I thought about not posting this because I don't want to step on their toes (they're excited about another Nstar), but if someone came to me and asked me "Northstar or L67", there would be no contest.

The first reason is packaging; the 3800 is very small in the Fiero's engine bay, it almost looks like it could be a large four cylinder. It's easy to work on and get around. The Northstar's heads and water pump assembly fill the entire bay of a Fiero. You have to cut a substantial amount of the decklid hinge off to get the rear head in. Is this a deal breaker? Maybe not. I personally highly value the room the V6 alots, fewer busted knuckles.

The second is reliability. Get the aluminum intake gaskets for the 3800 and forget about it. Change the oil. The Northstar is another animal.

Third is power potential. The Northstar will lock you in on power. Aftermarket is stupid expensive. If you want 300hp out of the 3800, you can probably get it with a pulley, throttle body, and one time tune. You can get a lot more with a cam. Again, 350 hp is relatively cheap. Most of the mods are cheap. Dollar for dollar you're going to get more.

Forth is ease of installation. People are always trying to do some crazy oddball swap to be different. They spend a ton of money and never get whatever it is running correctly, lose interest and sell. It happens more than it needs to. I think you should do the 3800 because you've played with one before, its a simple as dirt installation, there's tons of support for the Fiero, and you can actually enjoy the Fiero you've wanted for so long. What really sets swaps apart is when they're done professionally with top shelf parts. If I were you, I'd go find a low mile Series 3 (L32) with the Series 5 blower, cam it, pulley it, maybe some headers, toss it in, and drive it for many years. Have the thing operational, then plan out some crazy complicated swap like a 3500 turbo, twin turbo 3800, or LS.

Again, people get in over their head every day. Check out all the bullshit threads at Piffle, where the car's still on stands and they've been trying to get an engine swap done for 2+ years. It'll never happen at this point, and they're just going to come away from the whole situation angry about it. Is the Northstar complicated, nah. But its more complicated than the 3800, and I personally don't think its a better engine.

Ryan at Sinister is the best, his advice is valuable. I'm glad to see you're trying to make an informed decision here. For a while I thought you might just be a dreamer because of all the ideas you were throwing out, but I see now you were just doing your homework. Again man, just do something simple and get this car back on the road. Worry later about complicating things. The 3800 simply happens to be coincidentally the easiest and the best engine choice (In my opinion).
The Dark Side of Will
Peer Mediator
Posts: 15610
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: In the darkness, where fear and knowing are one
Contact:

Re: Concept to Realization

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Emc209i wrote:
Identity Crisis wrote:So this says to me go with a 3800 as it wont be as much trouble... And the fact that I can stay Automatic.
And this is my line of reasoning also, which I conveyed in another post. Will and cryzone are good guys, and I thought about not posting this because I don't want to step on their toes (they're excited about another Nstar), but if someone came to me and asked me "Northstar or L67", there would be no contest.
No stepping taken. There are a lot of reasons to pick the 3800 over the Northstar; you really have to want the Northstar to move forward with it. OP's first post on this forum was asking for help with his Northstar swap, so I initially thought that's where he was. However, after a few more threads, I see that he's still considering options.

We can give him the best advice around on each option and let him pick.
User avatar
Aaron
I just wanna ride my motorcycle
Posts: 5957
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:15 am
Contact:

Re: Concept to Realization

Post by Aaron »

The Dark Side of Will wrote:
Aaron wrote:Why would you do all that work to your 2.8l when you're just going to swap it out? If it's running like it should, leave it alone.
He really hasn't outlined more than a long day or short weekend's worth of work to the 2.8.
You're right, but it's still time and money dedicated to a worthless engine he isn't planning on keeping for very long. I sold my perfect running 2.8l for $200, and had to give away my second 2.8l because it wouldn't sell (High miles, not running).

Let's not get EMC started on his luck with the 3.4 DOHC, but is it a consideration? You've had one before I see. It's a mix of a N* and 3800, easier to swap than a N*, more exotic and soul than a 3800.
88GT 3.4 DOHC Turbo
Gooch wrote:Way to go douche. You are like a one-man, fiero-destroying machine.
User avatar
crzyone
JDM Power FTW
Posts: 4654
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:40 am
Location: Whitecourt, Alberta, Canada

Re: Concept to Realization

Post by crzyone »

I've never been a fan of the 3800. Just look at the weight comparison in the other thread. How do you make a 3000# fiero? Just add a 3800. Ease of swap is good and all but the iron boat anchor 3800 doesn't belong in a relatively light car.

That said, a N* with the auto is just as bad. I wouldn't consider using any of the auto transmissions for weight alone.
The Dark Side of Will
Peer Mediator
Posts: 15610
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: In the darkness, where fear and knowing are one
Contact:

Re: Concept to Realization

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

OP wants an automatic and is apparently willing to pay the weight penalty.

I think the 3800# car had a longitudinal 455 Olds... and I find that weight unreasonable and difficult to believe.

I was under the impression that 3800 powered cars ended up about 3100#... but that's still about 200# heavier than my car, which itself is about 200# heavier than I'd like it to be.
User avatar
Aaron
I just wanna ride my motorcycle
Posts: 5957
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:15 am
Contact:

Re: Concept to Realization

Post by Aaron »

Unfortunately getting a light engine in a Fiero isn't easy. The LSX can be relatively light, but is still a difficult and unnatural swap. The Fiero is too heavy as is to make use of a 4 cyl in my opinion, and GM doesn't offer any good low weight V6's. The 3.6 would be my choice, but it's DOHC architecture is still heavy and large, and it's an uncharted swap. And all of the OHV 60s are iron block.
88GT 3.4 DOHC Turbo
Gooch wrote:Way to go douche. You are like a one-man, fiero-destroying machine.
User avatar
crzyone
JDM Power FTW
Posts: 4654
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:40 am
Location: Whitecourt, Alberta, Canada

Re: Concept to Realization

Post by crzyone »

This topic can likely be split to clean the thread.

The 2L turbo in my Evo makes it pretty quick, and it's awd and 3400lbs. A properly built ecotec turbo with nice short gearing would probably be awesome in a Fiero. Make the power goal realistic, >400hp and you can build a fun light weight nimble Fiero.

If I was to get back into Fieros, I'd look at an 88 and seriously consider a turbo ecotec. The fuel economy alone would make the swap even more appealing.
User avatar
Identity Crisis
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:12 pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta CANADA

Re: Concept to Realization

Post by Identity Crisis »

Thanks everyone. You all have made some very valid points and options for me to consider and think about.

Yes I am trying to do my homework on what I really want to do here. I have been over the last month throwing out posts on questions that I need answers to in order to make an informed decision and you are all very knowledgeable and extremely helpful. I wish I had known of this site sooner and had my GT even sooner.

For power yes I would love to have something exotic to show off at the car shows (which I do partake in) but in all honesty I would rather have my GT not laid up for years etc for an engine. I will not be one of those people, that is not how I work. How I am feeling right now is the 3800 L67 maybe the way I will go and eventually buy a bunch of mods for it off the clubGP.com site where there is always some parts being sold pretty cheap to get this engine to about 400BHP/Tq (which is my eventual goal in any engine).

Yes I want to stay Auto. I know some people are against that, but we all know that an auto with a great shift kit in it can out shift any human and I already have a little 5 spd car. I just want to be able to get in and drive and if I want to go a little faster I just put my fat right foot down a little more. Not concerned about weight at all.

I am addicted to boost. So in the final stages it will most likely go from SC to TTC.

Why am I working on the 2.8L? Well honestly cause I want to, I want the experience working on the OEM engine in its native environment, I want to master it. I like the 60deg V6 and I already have a bunch of maintenance parts for it that I bought when I bought the car. And until I build the 3800 to be strong enough to handle what I want it to, that little engine still needs to chug along. And I want to drive my GT as much as possible, and don't want it laid up waiting for a transplant. And finally it will give me a great idea of the power difference when I do the swap.

I have done some considering of the GM Ecotec engines and yes you can get some crazy HP from those little guys for sure(yeah 800hp from a ecotec is crazy). But it would most likely cost me close to $2G to get all the parts I would need to swap in that engine to start before I got into performance parts.

To everyone thanks again, and yes I will be asking for your thoughts a lot along the way please be patient and realize my questions all have a reason behind them.

CHEERS
BULL
2015 Dodge Journey RT Rally AWD
2014 Dodge Ram 1500 Sport
1992 Pontiac Grand Prix STE
1987 Pontiac Fiero GT
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT
The Dark Side of Will
Peer Mediator
Posts: 15610
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: In the darkness, where fear and knowing are one
Contact:

Re: Concept to Realization

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

An LNF powertrain from a Cobalt SS, either with the indigenous F35 or a Saab (now BUICK!) F40 would be a great setup for a Fiero, especially with the Solstice/Sky GMPP tune or an appropriate aftermarket equivalent. It'll make over 300 HP and even more torque with the stock turbo.

I've weighed a complete Northstar longblock at 310#. IIRC, FieroGuru totaled the weight of his LS4 longblock components at 346#, so the Northstar is pretty darn light, despite being DOHC. The die cast block is a significant contributor to this, as it allows the non-structural portions of the block to be amazingly thin. Good design engineering everywhere else helps a lot, too. the accessory brackets for the Northstar have a combined weight of maybe 8 lbs, while those for the LS4 are more like 30, including a huge cast iron alternator mount bracket.

I *think* that the HFV6 blocks are sand castings, so I would not expect that they'd be proportionally as light as the Northstar, but they're still pretty darn light, as well as being a heck of a lot lighter than the 3.4 TDC, which is a pretty heavy engine.

BMWGuru on Pfiffle is working on a 3.6 port injected swap. It appears to fit the engine bay at least as well as the 3.4 TDC.
Post Reply