Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

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Aaron
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Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

Post by Aaron »

I need to figure out whether I want to keep a Fiero or sell it, and Series has convinced me to track mine and see if I love it. The car has some issues that need to be resolved before the track though, so I'll document those here.

First is the vapor lock. Pretty much I can't do more than 40 miles before it'll vapor lock. Now at the track I'll use a lot more fuel, which will keep temps down, but the motor will also run a lot hotter, so under decklid temps will be high. I'm going to go to the junkyard and pickup a nice trans or power steering cooler, and mount it near the A/C compressor is normally. It'll be on the return line.

Second is the coolant and oil temps. I've never had a problem before, but I've never run the car hard for an extended period of time. Series has, and has overheated. I'll be making a lot more power, and my coolant runs through the turbo. Bad. And the coolant to the oil cooler bypasses the radiator and goes right through the engine again. More bad. Since this track day is mostly a shakedown day, I'm going to pull off the hood and leave it at that. I'll monitor coolant temps, and oil temps should stay in range considering the oil cooler and increased capacity. I'm going to change the 0W30 out to 5W40.

Next is my oil leak/clutch slip. Oil leak causes my clutch to slip. Too hard to repair when I'm not sure if I want to keep the car, and if I do I don't want the DOHC, so I'm going to just hope the clutch doesn't slip. It's random, I haven't found a rhyme or reason to it, just happens about half the time.

So far that's all my plans, I don't want to spend much money on it before I run it on the track.
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Re: Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

If you take it to the track and it disappoints, you'll be even more discouraged with it.

At least fix the clutch problem first. What's leaking? Rear main seal?

Reliability of a turbo car on track is *NOT* a foregone conclusion. Even if you fix the clutch before you take it out, you *WILL* have some sort of problem on your first track day. If you choose to stick with it, you *WILL* learn a LOT about what makes the system reliable.

If you don't, you won't. Steven didn't quit the first time he had problems... don't let yourself fall into the trap of expecting that things will be great your first time out.

Also, even 40 wt oil is pretty light for the temps it will be seeing. Mobil 1 is available in 15W50, which is the minimum I'd want for a track day, and I've heard some guys on BMW forums going 20W60 as well.

If you're serious about tracking the car, check out www.corner-carvers.com
In fact, there's already a thread there about reliability of turbo cars on track: http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/sh ... php?t=1613
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Re: Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

You don't have to go 100% each lap. Maybe go a lap or two and work your way up to 100%. See how the car will react. Run it a couple laps checking gauges. Bring it into pits and look over everything for leaks.

Maybe leave your decklid off for some cooling and to see how hot stuff really gets. I don't forsee your coolant getting overheated from th turbo itself. Its so little coolant flowing through it compared to what's going through the block. If thermostat is easy to remove perhaps taking it out could help.

Running the rad fan at all times might not be a bad idea. Or just keep your eye on. It after a lap or two
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Re: Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Are you running stock ring gaps?
If so, those may not react well to extended time with 400 HP worth of heat going through them.

As Shaun said, work up to 100% cautiously.
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Re: Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

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Shaun41178(2) wrote:You don't have to go 100% each lap. Maybe go a lap or two and work your way up to 100%. See how the car will react. Run it a couple laps checking gauges. Bring it into pits and look over everything for leaks.
Yup, do this. You're not going to drive 100% on your first day in the car anyway. That thing is going to be a handful with the tires that are on it, and the slow steering which is going to prevent you from catching spins.
I don't forsee your coolant getting overheated from th turbo itself. Its so little coolant flowing through it compared to what's going through the block. If thermostat is easy to remove perhaps taking it out could help.

Running the rad fan at all times might not be a bad idea. Or just keep your eye on. It after a lap or two
The fan is going to run after the temperature gets up to a certain point anyway.

The turbo itself isn't the problem for heat; it's the fact that the engine has more power output. More power = more heat.

Removing the thermostat is probably not a good idea, nor is it necessary. You do want the engine to get up to operating temp quickly on the out lap.
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Re: Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

Post by Aaron »

Thanks guys, and I won't push the car anywhere near 100%. But I kind of do want to push the engine, to see if it can handle it. I've got all kinds of motivation, so I'm going to have a bunch of friends over, buy a bunch of beer, and pull the engine and do the rear main seal, and fix an oil pan leak also. If any of you want to join, you're invited. Colorado Springs, CO.

I went to the junkyard today and picked up an oil cooler to use on fuel return. Still can't wrap around why the fuel vapor locks. Lines run direct to the passenger side, and away from any significant heat source. Other than that everything is stock. I'm thinking on the highway (Where it happens), I'm using so little fuel, and the pump is flowing so much, that it circulates too much fuel, and the fuel doesn't spend enough time in the pump to cool before it is run through the motor again. Who knows, but a friend of mine thinks this will solve all my issues.

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Re: Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

Post by Series8217 »

Awesome!

Things to address and/or check while you're in there:
1) Timing belt -- if it needs replacement it'll be easier to replace with the motor out. Just inspect it.
2) Getrag detent housing cover; the big black rubber-coated round thing. Make sure it's not popped out.
3) Replace axle seals if they are leaking. Easy to do while the trans is out.
4) Check all rubber hoses
5) Inspect wiring, make sure nothing is rubbing on hot parts, etc.

Don't forget to inspect your brake hoses, flush your brake fluid with some good stuff (ATE TYP-200) and install some high temp pads if you can budget them.
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Re: Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

Post by Series8217 »

Aaron wrote: I went to the junkyard today and picked up an oil cooler to use on fuel return. Still can't wrap around why the fuel vapor locks. Lines run direct to the passenger side, and away from any significant heat source. Other than that everything is stock. I'm thinking on the highway (Where it happens), I'm using so little fuel, and the pump is flowing so much, that it circulates too much fuel, and the fuel doesn't spend enough time in the pump to cool before it is run through the motor again. Who knows, but a friend of mine thinks this will solve all my issues.
I don't think EFI at 42 psi can vapor lock. The pump is sitting submerged in fuel. It can always push fuel out as long as there's fuel in the tank at least up to the level of the pump rotor.
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Re: Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

Post by Aaron »

I've only ever had it happen on the highway. After about 30-40 minutes of normal highway driving, in hot ambient temps, the car randomly feels like it isn't getting fuel, loses all power, sputters, and dies soon after. The car won't restart, but the pump runs. If I wait about 25 minutes I can get it moving again, but it'll die 5 minutes later same problem. However, one I had my sister bring 6 gallons of fresh fuel, added all 6, and it started and ran great. It still had plenty of gas when I added the 6 gallons, at least a half tank.
Series8217 wrote: 1) Timing belt
2) Getrag detent housing cover; the big black rubber-coated round thing. Make sure it's not popped out.
3) Replace axle seals if they are leaking. Easy to do while the trans is out.
4) Check all rubber hoses
5) Inspect wiring, make sure nothing is rubbing on hot parts, etc.

Don't forget to inspect your brake hoses, flush your brake fluid with some good stuff (ATE TYP-200) and install some high temp pads if you can budget them.
I'll check the timing belt and detent cover. T-belt should be fine, it has less than 10,000 miles on it. Several years, but never outdoors, and the covers have always been on. I'll also check axle seals, IIRC the passenger side one might be leaking.

Other than that I should be good.
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Re: Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Aaron wrote:I've only ever had it happen on the highway. After about 30-40 minutes of normal highway driving, in hot ambient temps, the car randomly feels like it isn't getting fuel, loses all power, sputters, and dies soon after. The car won't restart, but the pump runs. If I wait about 25 minutes I can get it moving again, but it'll die 5 minutes later same problem. However, one I had my sister bring 6 gallons of fresh fuel, added all 6, and it started and ran great. It still had plenty of gas when I added the 6 gallons, at least a half tank.
I don't know if fuel pumps overheat or not, but I've known The Mule to have similar behavior, but not to the same extent. As any of you know after driving the car for a while, the tank (and center console) get quite warm.
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Re: Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

Post by fieroguru »

Aaron wrote:I've only ever had it happen on the highway. After about 30-40 minutes of normal highway driving, in hot ambient temps, the car randomly feels like it isn't getting fuel, loses all power, sputters, and dies soon after. The car won't restart, but the pump runs. If I wait about 25 minutes I can get it moving again, but it'll die 5 minutes later same problem. However, one I had my sister bring 6 gallons of fresh fuel, added all 6, and it started and ran great. It still had plenty of gas when I added the 6 gallons, at least a half tank.
The pump on my 4.3 swap did the same thing. Adding cold gas or letting it sit for a while would make it run again. Started out doing it after 300 miles on the interstate, then got to the point it was doing it after a 15 mile trip home in the evening (always was fine in the early morning). When it wouldn't run long enough for my commute, I changed the pump and it never did it again.
I would recommend replacing the fuel pump and if it hasn't been done already, do the the fuel pump hotwire.
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Re: Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

Post by crzyone »

Large fuel pumps can heat your fuel to the point of vapor lock. Summit sells a fuel cooler to combat this.
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Re: Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

Post by ericjon262 »

I look forward to seeing results! I'd come by and help with the clutch job if I was close, but I'm not up for a plane ride!
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Re: Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

Post by Series8217 »

crzyone wrote:Large fuel pumps can heat your fuel to the point of vapor lock. Summit sells a fuel cooler to combat this.
Those fuel coolers are intended for low-pressure fuel systems used on carbureted vehicles, and probably aren't even designed to be used safely with EFI pressures.

Aaron's fueling problem is most likely a weak fuel pump. It's temperature-dependent, but it's not vapor lock. See fieroguru's post above.
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Re: Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

crzyone wrote:Large fuel pumps can heat your fuel to the point of vapor lock. Summit sells a fuel cooler to combat this.
I'm running a stock C4 vette pump in The Mule... I'm guessing that Guru is running a Walbro 255... not exactly huge pumps by modern standards.
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Re: Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Series8217 wrote: Those fuel coolers are intended for low-pressure fuel systems used on carbureted vehicles, and probably aren't even designed to be used safely with EFI pressures.
They would be ok on the return line, but after hearing other experiences with warm pumps, it sounds like it's time for a new pump.
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Re: Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

Post by crzyone »

What fuel pump are you running Aaron?
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Re: Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

Post by Aaron »

A Walbro 255, with maybe 10,000 miles on it but over several years. It also sounds like I need a new pump. Sucks.
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Re: Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

I'll have to check... I have way more miles on mine, but it's also 12 or 13 years old. I wouldn't expect that to matter to an OE pump, but the Fiero tank may run hotter than the Vette tank.
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Re: Series inspired me, taking my turbo 3.4 to the track

Post by Aaron »

Where's the best place to get a new Walbro 255? Also what application should I spec it for? Obviously a Fiero, but I don't think they listed it as available for one. I'd guess a C4 Vette should work.
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