The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Real tech discussion on design, fabrication, testing, development of custom or adapted parts for Pontiac Fieros. Not questions about the power a CAI will give.

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jelly2m81
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by jelly2m81 »

Still looking Will.......tore that cunt apart about oh 15 years ago, threw it in a box in my shop attic Found everything in the box but the output shaft cluster...... I don't recall throwing any of that out, and I'm quite certain none of that went to Rick for the original build. Have a few 5 gallon buckets of random transmission shit, hopefully it's in there. I'll let you know.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Thanks!
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

So... screwed this up just a smidge.
When putting the shift collar up against the gear, the modified face of the shift collar hits the side of the gear. You can feel the shift collar rock against the gear, which I took to mean that the shift collar was hitting the gear at the edge of the taper. I thought this meant that the taper need to be taken back a smidge to clear the gear. I went back to the machinist to get this done.
As our metric of "fitment" was whether the collar would rock when placed against the side of the gear, neither of us thought to *MEASURE* the diameter of the taper vs. the diameter of the gear in order to sanity check. We ended up taking more than intended off the taper.
Only then did we realize that one or both parts are slightly warped, which is why they were rocking when they whould have been flat.

Also, the shift collar is VERY hard. Clamping it in a 3 jaw chuck hard enough to cut material without spinning it in the chuck results in bowing it slightly (You can see the bow if you look at reflected light on the taper as it spins). This also means that the taper/diameter is not round once the part is removed from the chuck.

This would be a perfect application for a 6 jaw chuck.

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

saw in another post oil consumption issues. Improper gapped rings? blowby? low compression?
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

This engine has always had oil consumption... we've discussed it previously in this thread.

My current theory is oil ring tension too low. Digging way back in the memory bank, I think I asked Total Seal for low tension oil rings, but now understand these are only suitable for a dry sump engine.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

so regular rings which might require a rehone. thoughts of gas porting the pistons?
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Shouldn't need a re-hone unless something surprising has happened to the bores. While I have the engine apart, I will be measuring ring drag as a proxy for ring tension and measuring bore surface finish with a profilometer.
A re-hone would require new pistons, too, as the current ones are fit at 0.0015 or so.

I was interested in gas porting and researched it when I was building the engine. It does make power via an outstanding ring seal, but also dramatically increases bore wear. While the Cadillac liners are extremely hard, I'm reluctant to pay the R&D cost to find out how long they would last in a street engine & daily driver.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Also, vertical gas ports in a street engine tend to get clogged with carbon deposits.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Go with horizontal ports although those are probably designed into the casting or forging process but maybe not. Never looked into horizontal porting too much
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

I took a few to swing my Percy's WheelRite today. It measures a max of 5 1/8" of back spacing, but that wasn't enough. The '84-'87 Fiero can take about 1 3/8" more than that or 6.5" total with a rear camber of ~-1.5 degrees. This is a "bare clearance" fit and would not be appropriate for actual use... you know... with a tire.

The C5 Corvette rear wheel has an "outside" backspacing of 10 9/32 - 2.660 = 7.62" or 7 5/8 including the exterior "lip" or about 7 1/2" to the "inside" corner of the wheel, which is the part we have to worry more about.
I'll use the larger number for the sake of margin.

So the Fiero can fit 6.5" of backspacing and the Corvette wheel has 7 5/8" of backspacing, I need to make the adapter 1.125" thick. The hub circle is 5x115mm with 2.76" hub pilot (please check if you know the spec... I just measured my hub). The wheel bolt circle is 5x4.75" with a... fudge, my calipers won't fit into the Corvette wheel.

The internets say 70.6 mm (2.779").
http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c5- ... heels.html
http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c5- ... r-hub.html
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Shaun41178(2) wrote:Go with horizontal ports although those are probably designed into the casting or forging process but maybe not. Never looked into horizontal porting too much
I don't expect to have to change the pistons out. As I mentioned above, I'm not interested in footing the R&D bill to see how long Northstar bore liners last with gas ported pistons of any type.

Very few in the way of final features are built into piston forgings.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

GM part number for the 1-2 synchro assembly is 23047862
The "sleeve" does not have a part number listed and is described as being part of the synchro assembly.

Googling the part number shows gmpartswiki as a hit, but it's not loading right now
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Vintage parts does not show the synchro assembly from their web search.

I'll see if I can dig one more up this weekend

My dad found a couple of pieces of hollow aluminum bar at work in the 5-7" OD range, so I'll probably end up having my own wheel adapter(s) made... makes it easier to get a bunch of different thicknesses for testing.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The only 12 x 1.5 nuts that McMaster has are Class 8 steel :-o (or 18-8 SS)
PN 91415A125
10mm thick, 19mm hex

Also adding 91455A150 washers with a diameter of 24 mm thickness spread of 2.4 to 2.7. The thickness spread itself doesn't matter, but I need to design the adapter for something. My 19mm socket is 1.031 diameter, so the counterbore needs to be at least 1.050.

The Dorman 610-323 studs have a head diameter of 0.610, head thickness of 0.150, underhead length of 2.115 and a minimum flange thickness of 0.300.

Sketch sent to my dad to have local machinist make.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

1-2 shift collars have an OD of 3.932 and 36 splines
3-4 shift collars have an OD of 3.733 and 30 splines
5th gear shift collars have the reverse gear integral to them.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Seller didn't have it out of the transmission and backed out. I guess I'll have to knock one of my shelf transmissions apart.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Shaun41178(2) wrote:Go with horizontal ports although those are probably designed into the casting or forging process but maybe not. Never looked into horizontal porting too much
https://books.google.com/books?id=KAdDh ... ar&f=false

Vizard thinks that horiztonal ports don't affect bore wear as much as vertical ports... I may have to ask about this on SpeedTalk.

Reher-Morrison likes them a lot, *BUT* their concept of "service life" and mine are vastly different.
http://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-22-t ... gas-ports/

This isn't a very deep article, but does have some actual numbers for "ring tension" although they don't mention how that's actually measured.
I'll be able to measure actual ring drag fairly easily, though.
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrd ... ring-tech/
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The Dark Side of Will wrote:Seller didn't have it out of the transmission and backed out. I guess I'll have to knock one of my shelf transmissions apart.
Did that, have the blocker ring. My dad will get the ring and my sketch to the machinist this week. That was my mistake last time... I gave him directions, but not a print.
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Notepad of things to do prior to the upcoming tear down:
  • Call CHRFab, ask about results when porting Aurora heads vice Northstar heads.
    The Aurora heads have smaller chambers than the Northstar heads. Aurora heads on a stock Northstar with 10.3 compression will yield 11:1 compression. However, the Auroras have smaller valves than the Northstars. Alan Johnson has told me before that when the Northstar size valves are installed in Aurora heads and the chambers are unshrouded "there isn't much difference in volume". I need to quantify "not much difference"... 1 cc? 2 cc's? Also, does he hand-deshroud or use a deshrouding cutter?
  • Obtain, if necessary, and modify appropriate head castings to work with Y2K intake manifold with huge intake runners
  • Ship modified heads to CHRF for porting (pay for new springs/retainers, or pull their springs/retainers out of my engine and send with? Prices have gone up a lot!)
  • Assemble 2.50/1.85 transmission. Almost done with output cluster again/still. I have the specs for the input shaft and input cluster mods.
  • Fit 18x9.5 wheel and 285/30-18 tire. I'll probably get a Sumitomo HTRZ III since it's F@#$%ing cheap and so am I. I'm not under the impression this tire will give me extreme performance, BUT it will be a fitment guide in order to set up the wheel adapter thickness in order to get the tire positioned equally far from inboard and outboard interferences. The Sumitomo is the narrowest of the tires TireRack lists in that size at 11" measured section width and 10.2" tread width. The Hoosier A6 & A7 have 11.5" section width with 10.9" and 10.4" tread widths. The BFG GForce R1 claims an 11.4" section width and 11.5" tread width... not sure how that works.
  • Measure "caster' of rear suspension in order to know where to put my new suspension pivots. I need to correctly angle the control arm inner pivots in the side view in order to keep them perpendicular to the strut travel and not bind.
  • Remeasure new crankshaft journals and verify vs. pre-assembly measurements of main and rod bearings in current assembly; determine if I want to find a shop who can cut the crank competently or buy standard rod bearings.
  • Contact Total Seal about whether or not my order has low tension oil rings. If so order new oil rings. Not sure if I want Total Seal, Perfect Circle, Sealed Power or what. (Hell, just clean up the original stockers and throw them back in...)
  • Design and produce concentric/eccentric aluminum forward cradle mounts
  • Install spherical bearings in the rear control arms
Notepad of things to do during the upcoming tear down:
  • Pull engine
  • Tear down engine
  • Determine if I can reuse my Cometic gaskets
  • Measure ring drag for all individual rings in all cylinders, including current oil rings and new oil rings
  • Order any potentially necessary bearings
  • Reassemble engine with new crankshaft and new oil rings
  • Install ported heads and Y2K manifold
  • Add an oil fill to the rear valve cover
  • Install and wire for Corvette combo oil temp and oil level sensor.
  • Rework accessory drive to add crank pulley wrap and improve packaging. This will allow me to ditch the last vestiges of the right side Northtar dogbone bracket, thereby improving clearance to the right hinge box, the battery and the battery tray. Currently the belt goes right through where the bolt which would allow me to remove the rest of that bracket needs to go.
  • Rework wiring harness to hide more of the harness and clean up the engine bay. I can make most of the wiring disappear without modifying the injector harness.
  • Add a pressurized surge tank to the cooling system (and mount it low!)
  • Resurface flywheel (again). I want to see how the new gears work with a conventional clutch before I go to the Tilton. Also, CHRF heads are a bit pricey and a Tilton's going to add about $1000 to the cost of the build (or $700 over a new conventional clutch). My current SPEC Stage 3 is pretty chattery. Since Getrags rattle *ANYWAY*, no matter what, the sprung hub--the only purpose of which is to subdue gear rattle--isn't doing me any good. It occurs to me that clutch chatter is a relaxation oscillator phenomenon like wheel hop. The sprung hub forms an essential part of that oscillator. An unsprung hub clutch might chatter way less than an equivalent sprung hub for that reason. That might help explain why some people on Old Europe claim that their stage 3's are smooth and streetable, while other people like me and Steven have problems with clutch chatter (Steven, do you have a sprung hub?)
  • Replace the right hinge box and trim the new hinge box less than I trimmed the current hinge box. By being able to move the hinges up/down and left/right at the hinge box, and the decklid fore/aft on the hinge, GM incorporated three axis adjustment of the decklid into the design. The way I have the right hinge box trimmed and the hinge modified eliminates the adjustment at that hinge. I have to move the decklid left/right with shims between the hinge and the decklid instead of by the original adjustment. I'd like to fix that.
  • Replace the chassis side dogbone mount that I cut off
  • Install a firewall blockoff plate to prevent engine compartment air from entering the cabin
  • Produce and install concentric/eccentric aluminum forward cradle mounts
  • Install rivnuts in body and cradle to secure Rodney's replacement engine bay splash guards to help keep all my work CLEAN!
Either during or after:
  • Build an engine side dogbone brace to bolt to the PS pump mount. My current urethane engine mount system is very "springy", which contributes to clutch chatter and wheel hop, but I don't know by how much to each. A rod end dog bone may help alleviate that.
  • Complete my tubular upper control arm build
  • Install spherical bearings in the front lower control arms
  • Rework the coolant hoses/pipes and install the oil/water heat exchanger
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Image
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