The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Real tech discussion. Not questions about the power a CAI will give.

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Series8217
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by Series8217 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:34 am

The Dark Side of Will wrote: [*]Add a pressurized surge tank to the cooling system (and mount it low!)
What's this going to do for you? If you're using it to separate air it shouldn't be mounted low.
[*]Resurface flywheel (again). I want to see how the new gears work with a conventional clutch before I go to the Tilton. Also, CHRF heads are a bit pricey and a Tilton's going to add about $1000 to the cost of the build (or $700 over a new conventional clutch). My current SPEC Stage 3 is pretty chattery. Since Getrags rattle *ANYWAY*, no matter what, the sprung hub--the only purpose of which is to subdue gear rattle--isn't doing me any good. It occurs to me that clutch chatter is a relaxation oscillator phenomenon like wheel hop. The sprung hub forms an essential part of that oscillator. An unsprung hub clutch might chatter way less than an equivalent sprung hub for that reason. That might help explain why some people on Old Europe claim that their stage 3's are smooth and streetable, while other people like me and Steven have problems with clutch chatter (Steven, do you have a sprung hub?)
I only have experience with sprung hub clutches in the Fiero. My current Clutchnet "dual friction" disc has a sprung hub. It doesn't chatter. When I had a grabbier material (ceramic-copper?) SPEC clutch the chatter was pretty bad. The springs might be stiffer in the Clutchnet. It also has more mass than the SPEC. The center hub plates are at least twice as thick as the SPEC.

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by ericjon262 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:06 pm

Originally posted by cptsnoopy:

Will contacted me about the itb setup. It's going to him as soon as I can get time to box it up. Hopefully he will have some good numbers to show us when he gets it working for him. :thumbsup:

Charlie
:)
saw this on the other forum and was intrigued... planning something big eh?
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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:57 pm

ericjon262 wrote:
Originally posted by cptsnoopy:

Will contacted me about the itb setup. It's going to him as soon as I can get time to box it up. Hopefully he will have some good numbers to show us when he gets it working for him. :thumbsup:

Charlie
:)
saw this on the other forum and was intrigued... planning something big eh?

Hehe... good eyeballs. I don't know if that setup is sized for the power I want to make or not, but he made an offer I couldn't pass up, so I'm at least going to take some measurements and give it a shot. :-D

Now I need to work a test stage for that manifold into my very rough schedule.
I'm not sure if I'll need to build a plenum or rework the one that he has or what.

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:07 pm

Series8217 wrote:
The Dark Side of Will wrote: [*]Add a pressurized surge tank to the cooling system (and mount it low!)
What's this going to do for you? If you're using it to separate air it shouldn't be mounted low.
[*]Resurface flywheel (again). I want to see how the new gears work with a conventional clutch before I go to the Tilton. Also, CHRF heads are a bit pricey and a Tilton's going to add about $1000 to the cost of the build (or $700 over a new conventional clutch). My current SPEC Stage 3 is pretty chattery. Since Getrags rattle *ANYWAY*, no matter what, the sprung hub--the only purpose of which is to subdue gear rattle--isn't doing me any good. It occurs to me that clutch chatter is a relaxation oscillator phenomenon like wheel hop. The sprung hub forms an essential part of that oscillator. An unsprung hub clutch might chatter way less than an equivalent sprung hub for that reason. That might help explain why some people on Old Europe claim that their stage 3's are smooth and streetable, while other people like me and Steven have problems with clutch chatter (Steven, do you have a sprung hub?)
I only have experience with sprung hub clutches in the Fiero. My current Clutchnet "dual friction" disc has a sprung hub. It doesn't chatter. When I had a grabbier material (ceramic-copper?) SPEC clutch the chatter was pretty bad. The springs might be stiffer in the Clutchnet. It also has more mass than the SPEC. The center hub plates are at least twice as thick as the SPEC.
I was toying with tank geometries, like having the inlet high with a tall neck leading to the bulk of the fluid low. I'll see where it goes. Most likely I'll grab a Corvette unit or something similar that looks like it's designed with a curved lower surface to hug a wheel house.

The SPEC in The Mule is moderately bad, but that car has a lot of torque to pull through the chattery range of RPM difference quickly. The clutch in the Storm Trooper is VERY bad--so bad I think they sent me a stage 5 instead of a stage 2--but that car only has the 2.8, so it's much harder to drive smoothly.

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:14 pm

Here's the wheel adapter which I will use to install C5 Corvette 18x9.5 rears on The Mule. It was made from a random scrapped part that my dad pulled out of the bin at the place from which he is semi retired. That's why it has the one wonky hole and the extra 6 bolt circle.

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With some nuts and washers dropped into the counterbores. I've had nuts and washers on the table for a couple of months. I snagged some Dorman 610-323's tonight and will be installing shortly.

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Here's the BEEF: This is what I wanted to do to the shift collar the whole time... Figures I had to actually make a *PRINT* of it in order to get a machinist to make it right. It's not like the entire profession is built around hitting numbers on a drawing or anything. You can see that the max diameter of the taper is slightly larger than the OD in the groove valley. This way the shift fork has a bit more material to push against than it did the way Houseman modified the first part.

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A comparison in wall thickness between the part I spec'd and the Houseman part:

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Modded gears vs. stock gears:

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And the MAIN EVENT: a FULLY ARMED AND OPERATIONAL OUTPUT CLUSTER
The 3-4 gear went on surprisingly easily. I hope that's just because we had it good and hot and the coefficient of friction with the REM polished 3.94 output shaft is lower than it is on the stock shaft.

Image

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:26 pm

High tech stud installation:

Image

Adapter with studs:

Image

Adapter with studs storing washers and nuts:

Image

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by Shaun41178(2) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:39 pm

nice work on the trans

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:21 pm

Series8217 wrote: I only have experience with sprung hub clutches in the Fiero. My current Clutchnet "dual friction" disc has a sprung hub. It doesn't chatter. When I had a grabbier material (ceramic-copper?) SPEC clutch the chatter was pretty bad. The springs might be stiffer in the Clutchnet. It also has more mass than the SPEC. The center hub plates are at least twice as thick as the SPEC.
Also, I'd like to perform an experiment to see how much the springs contribute to chatter while holding friction material constant.
Trouble is... to get a 9 1/8" single disk clutch to hold 350 ftlbs with reasonable pedal effort, selection of friction material is limited. The SPEC in The Mule chatters moderately, as I noted, but the pedal is absolutely feather light... probably lighter than stock. It's lighter than the stock clutch in my 325iX, which is *slightly* uprated compared to the 325i clutch.
Shaun41178(2) wrote:nice work on the trans
Thanks!
The input cluster requires much more machine work, but I have all the parts, I have the design and I have the path forward to completion. I just need to get off the damn internet and make a drawing. :wink:

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:35 am

Well this is wrong.

The adapter wheel pilot appears to be on spec at 2.780, but it's too big to go into the wheel. :no:
I'll drop it and the wheel off with a local machinist where I am and have it modded (much more quickly than the local machinist where my dad is).
And get the correct measurement from the wheel.

ETA: The actual ID of the wheel pilot bore is 2.765, so the OD of the pilot should be 2.760 +0.000 -0.005

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sat Mar 19, 2016 1:39 am

Had the wheel adapter modified locally last night. It works.

The shell diameter of the Lemforder ball joint mics out at 1.5764 (40mm) and the length is 1.8893 (48mm).

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:44 am

I used the wheel adapter this morning and pulled some numbers. The outer lip of the C5 wheel will stick out 1/2" further than the outer lip of the Grand Prix wheel.

Here's my measurement rig:

Image

The sockets are 1.500 +/-.005 tall and the measurement at static ride height is 1 5/32, so the outer lip of the Grand Prix wheel is actually just under 3/8" inside the outer lip of the stock fender.
I repeated the measurement with the Grand Prix wheel with the suspension at full droop. That measurement is 1 3/4".
The corresponding measurement with the C5 rear wheel is just under 2 1/4"... so the Corvette wheel will stick out 1/2".

Adapter installed:

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Would need slight modifications actually to work:

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C5 wheel in place:

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Clearance to the strut:

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Not quite a banana for scale:

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That is the narrowest gap between the wheel and the strut. I could gain 1/8" of clearance by snagging a new pair of Koni struts and modifying them to have the sleeve seat on the original spring perch weld rather than on the clamp.
I currently have 325# x 12" springs. If tire clearance to the spring perch is a thing, I could step down to 10" springs to resolve that.

Beefy rear view for a Fiero, but no wider than stock on a C5:

Image

Next step: grab a cheap @$$ Sumitomo 285/30 from Tire Rack and look at tire clearances.

Current tires are 245/50-16's and calc to 25.64" tall.
The 285/30-18's calc to 24.72" tall... going to lose a bit more gear than just the 3.61 to 3.94 swap. The gear swap will be 9% and I'll gain about another 4% RPM from the tire swap. But I'll also gain 4% in acceleration :D
The new tires will be 0.92" shorter than the old.

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:54 pm

Ordered the cheap @$$ 285/30 today. Tire Rack sent a shipping confirmation email in less than three hours.

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by Shaun41178(2) » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:15 pm

I have a feeling the tire will rub on the spring.

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:23 pm

Shaun41178(2) wrote:I have a feeling the tire will rub on the spring.
The Dark Side of Will wrote: I currently have 325# x 12" springs. If tire clearance to the spring perch is a thing, I could step down to 10" springs to resolve that.
No big loss... just another step in a process that hasn't been very quick to begin with. Steven's had good success in his track rat with 400# rear springs, so I could step up to that number or even higher. I'd like to map out rubbing on the wheel house liner, though, to verify that I have the wheel/tire centered in the wheel house.

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:23 am

At a ride height of 15 7/16.

Height difference (245 on right is also at ~halfway through its tread depth)
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Width difference (both are Sumitomos)
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Shaun41178(2) wrote:I have a feeling the tire will rub on the spring.
Your feelings are invalid. :good:

However, it's really close, and probably would rub on a max effort corner. My finger won't fit. I'll see if I can get a better measurement, but I'd guess a 1/4-5/16" gap before initial contact. Initial contact would be harmless.
Also, as mentioned above, I can raise the spring perch over 1.5" by swapping to 10" springs. I'd probably up the rate to 400 in an effort to further copy-cat Steven, however.

Image


Not too hideous, but needs moar low

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No more stick-outy than the current 245's. If anything, it looks a smidge pokey-stretchy by comparison. I need to upgrade to a more expensive 285/30.

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A smidge pokey-stretchy:

Image

Needs moar low; ride height is 15 7/16 (center of axle to bottom edge of fender lip):

Image

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:49 am

Inflation's a BITCH!

IIRC, 15 years ago I bought my current 325x12 HAL QA1 springs for $25-30 each. Now the cheapest I can find is the high travel version for $47 from Summit ($55 direct from QA1!).

I guess I should just deal with it and place the order.

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:38 pm

Umm... HELLO:

https://streetwiseparts.com/collections ... strut-36mm

AND

http://thmotorsports.com/i-2157509.aspx ... Auew8P8HAQ

Bilstein universal "motorsport" struts for under $350. Wow.

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:33 am

Cue Koni revalving in 3... 2... 1...

Summit exceeded expectations for shipping

Image

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:31 am

The Dark Side of Will wrote:Had the wheel adapter modified locally last night. It works.

The shell diameter of the Lemforder ball joint (34756-01) mics out at 1.5764 and the length is 1.8893.
NotePad:
E34 control arm bushings
Dim inches
OD 1.821
L 2.036

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Re: The Mule rides again (sort of) - pics.

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:47 pm

Another front UCA control arm prototype:

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