Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Real tech discussion on design, fabrication, testing, development of custom or adapted parts for Pontiac Fieros. Not questions about the power a CAI will give.

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The Dark Side of Will
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Sweeet.
That's going to end up a pretty tall gear.

How did you have it shipped?
fieroguru
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by fieroguru »

Originally, I got some quotes through Fed Ex, but they wanted about $500 to ship it.

Through Uship the lowest quote was $378 with Freight World Wide which is who I went with. Freight World Wide outsourced the load to EB Cargo, who outsourced the load to TNT - who actually picked up the transmission. TNT took it to the airport and handed it off to Fed Ex who flew it over the pond and got it to my house.

I paid $482 for the transmission.
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

TNT shipped a BMW 188mm rear differential (80+ lbs) for $120ish from Latvia or Lithuania... The unit was cheap, so the total came in around $200, which is cheaper than most diffs in THIS country.

I'm trying to get a pair of front diffs shipped over: One an E46 2.35, the other an E53 3.07. I *might* be able to get them when I'm in Germany on my way back from the 'Stan, and put them in my checked luggage. They're probably upwards of 40# each, though.
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

I got around to upploading my F40 documents I scoured the web for over the last couple of years.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=19Bw63 ... gU4TTbKA5j
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Have any part number lists in there?
I need to dig up the PN's for the MT2 6th gear pair.
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

Only RPO codes really.
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

If you can find a decent copy of the Opel EPC software you might be able to find the PN's you need, then you need to find if anyone in Europe has stock.
This is really a European transmission developed for the world market. GM US appears to treat it like a black box, the GM online parts catalog doesn't even list output seals.

http://saabworld.net/showthread.php?t=33310

Saab WIC and EPC install sets.
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

I have not done that yet, but based on my experience with internet Saab parts lookup websites, I don't have high hopes for Saab being able to get me anything.

HOWEVER, based on entering hundreds of sequential PNs into google and finding some European suppliers, I have some candidate PNs. I've sent emails to inquire and will post more if I get steel in my hot little hands.
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

FieroWanaBe1 wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:43 am If you can find a decent copy of the Opel EPC software you might be able to find the PN's you need, then you need to find if anyone in Europe has stock.
This is really a European transmission developed for the world market. GM US appears to treat it like a black box, the GM online parts catalog doesn't even list output seals.

http://saabworld.net/showthread.php?t=33310

Saab WIC and EPC install sets.
I downloaded the EPC, but--rather unsurprisingly--it has the same listings I've found on websites, which do not include any of the actual gears for the F40.
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

That stinks. Perhaps Fiat or Opel has parts detail in their service manuals?
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

In the F40, 1,2,5 & 6 are on the lower output shaft, while 3,4 & R are on the upper input shaft.
I read somewhere that the center distance from the input shaft to the lower output is 76mm.
This makes sense as GM has been using this number forever. The 282 and Isuzu both use it, probably the Muncie as well. It's strong enough for the engines the transmission is used with, but small enough that it keeps the 1st output gear small and light (and cheap!), even with relatively extreme ratios around 4:1.

However, the center distance to the upper output shaft is different.
Since the same gear on the input shaft drives both 3rd on the lower output and 5th on the upper output, I can do some algebra to figure out what the pitch radii of those gears are and thus what the other shaft center is. IOW, the ratio between 3rd and 5th *should* always be the same and should be the same as the ratio between the shaft center distances.

Thing is... when I do the math for the MT2 gearset and the MU9 gearset, I come up with DIFFERENT NUMBERS. The MU9 gearset with 1.365 third and 0.846 fifth should have an upper output shaft center distance of 97.4mm, while the MT2 gearset with 1.321 third and 0.755 fifth should have a 100.5mm shaft center. WTF?
Did they actually make two different versions of BOTH case halves in order to make this happen? I've done my math over several times because it's such a weird result, but I guess I could be wrong.

This is kind of an important result for swappers, because it means you can't mix/match 3rd & 4th gear parts between the two types of transmission. MT2 (MZ3 & MR6) transmission upper output shaft parts won't swap with MU9 (& MK6) upper output shaft parts. If you want MU9 3rd or 4th with the GM Metric pattern, you have to start with the transmission from a 2007 G6 rather than a 2006.

Now I have to get both, tear them down and measure. I already have an MU9 with the high feature V6 case.
Holy cow.
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The reason I was looking into that was to see how practical a custom 1-4 set would be, which put first and second on the upper output shaft so they'd be stronger due to the larger shaft center. This set would use a much taller first to keep the output pitch radius down. This would be desireable for use with a turbo LS4 or turbo Northstar in the 1000HP range.

Even so, with a shaft center around 100mm, and a ratio of 2.50, the output gear would have a pitch radius of 71mm, which is 14mm larger than the 56-57mm existing 3rd gears. That's unlikely to fit the case.
Even reducing the ratio to a C6 ZR1 like 2.29 only bring it down to 69.6mm. Feh, I guess I'll have to measure while I have one apart.
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

I'd buy into a custom gear set.
Ill will need to pull my cases apart and check shaft spacing.
We recently got a Faro arm here at work. Ill have to learn how to use it and check if the changes from MT2 to MU9 or from the Aero Coupe did alter the shaft center lines at all.

It might be a while for me. I'm moving in July/August to Ft Bragg for an extended duration of time, not much time left to fit all my projects in.
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

First thing I should do is bring my complete gear boxes in, and put them on the Test stand and verify the gears ratios are correct....
I'm suspicious of the gearset in the 07 G6 box I have.
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Yeah, Hollander doesn't differentiate between the '06 MT2 and '07 MU9 G6 Gearboxes
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by draven »

Not to hijack...

Will you probably would, but would anyone else reading this thread be interested in a twin disc organic clutch / PP / and solid flywheel from RAM Clutches or even Monster Clutch for the Saab 6spd F40? Torque handling would probably be inversely proportional to drivable disc material... with organic sprung ~500-600ft/lbs

I've already spoken to RAM Clutches at EricJohn's recommendation and they are willing to do it however, not until July.
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

it sounds interesting, but I would want my flywheel to have an LS crank pattern, And button flywheels do exist already that i can use and still have an acceptable stack height.
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Interesting idea... you covering the engineering fee? :wink:

Also, as WannaBe noted, there are a variety of crank bolt patterns that may be used. The Northstar and LS4 are different, for example.
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by draven »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 7:38 am Interesting idea... you covering the engineering fee? :wink:

Also, as WannaBe noted, there are a variety of crank bolt patterns that may be used. The Northstar and LS4 are different, for example.
Yes, I'm covering the engineering fee... they ballparked me between 1300-1500$ for design and kit....given that they already make a setup for the LLT/LFX camaro using their 9.5" twin setup, my LF3/LF4 needs aren't too far away...ring gear size and crank bolt pattern will work(given a camaro lfx starter) as is.... just have to get the clutch spline count to 23 by 1" and make sure the stack height is appropriate for the saab F40 trans. They also have pressure straps that keep the intermediate plate rattle to a minimum if not eliminated as opposed to hard neoprene bumpers used elsewhere.

FYI, I could get a dual setup and fw for the saab f40 from Clutchmasters right now for a cool $3K.... :)

If I could get some crank bolt measurements and bellhousing depths for the LS4/NorthStar and 60deg F40 respectively.. we might be able to all benefit..

Is there anyway to approximate needed stack height if all I have is the saab F40 trans and HTOB? Still searching for a used/replaced Saab F40 2.8T clutch/pp/fw to get measurements but no luck bugging the guys at saabcentral or local saab shops and a new oem clutch kit with DMF is about $1K..
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The HTOB gives you finger height and the depth of the limiting feature in the bellhousing gives you allowable stack height.

Do you have a GMail? I've been collecting these dimensions in a Google Doc.

It's too bad I don't have the high feature V6 crank pattern...
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