Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Real tech discussion on design, fabrication, testing, development of custom or adapted parts for Pontiac Fieros. Not questions about the power a CAI will give.

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The Dark Side of Will
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

They are different patterns.
There's an outfit called "Trifecta Performance" who can tune the OE computers on the DI 3.6's. They claim to have done several swap ECM's without problems.

I had figured that MoTeC was working on something for DI engines... At least GM's on the 58x trigger wheel now, so the "usual suspects" from aftermarket engine management will work.
teamlseep13
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by teamlseep13 »

Totally forgot about Trifecta....they are in my neck of the woods.
I actually inquired to them about doing a DI Ecotec swap and they could unlock that ECM for me. That project might still be on the table.

One thing that turned me off though was that there is no support for doing your own tuning for the 3.6L DI engines. The 2.0L DI ECOtecs have support via HP tuners. I think EFI Live is working on the '10 and '11 year 3.0L DI motors and possible the 3.6L in the Camaros.

Trifecta guards (rightly so) their tuning software and will only flash ECM's for you with their tunes.
1988 Pontiac Fiero

Ecotec swap taking much too long...
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

I have my hands full enough with the Northstar and now the Bad Idea BMW. I'd do the 3.6 as a stock swap, get it tuned and leave it alone.
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

I didn't realize this, but according to the media archive, the 2006 Saab 9-3 has the MU9 gearing while the 2006 G6 has the MT2 gearing. Interdasting, as there's a 2006 Saab box close enough to drive to for $250.

https://archives.media.gm.com/us/powert ... trans.html

And the '07 archive verifies MU9 in the G6:

https://archives.media.gm.com/us/powert ... /07car.htm
FieroWanaBe1
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

SAAB trans code FM68 is the 3.91 ratio. There where 3 available.

Code: Select all

	
	    	FM68	FM6A	FM67
	1   	14.73	13.36	13.36
	2   	7.97 	7.23 	7.23 
	3   	5.16 	4.68 	4.84 
	4   	3.72 	3.38 	3.72 
	5   	2.95 	2.68 	3.00 
	6   	2.44 	2.21 	2.51 
	R   	13.83	12.55	12.55
	FINAL	3.91 	3.55 	3.55 
Data is copied from the workshop information system (WIS) from a 9-3.
Below is from the former GM Powertrain website on the MR6 F40 found in Regals from 2011-2015
Type: F40-6 FWD (AWD capable)
Max torque 400Nm
Torque limitations: 300Nm 1st=4,167, R=3,917
Torque limitations: 330Nm 1st=3,917, R=3,750
Torque limitations: 280Nm 1st=3,769/3,917 R=3,538/3,750
Torque limitations: 2nd gear: 400Nm (all)
Torque limitations: 4th gear: 400Nm (all)
Transmission Orientation: front wheel drive & transversal set up
Configuration 3-piece housing
No. of gears 6 + rev.
No. of shafts 3
Shift system (cable/rod) cable
Clutch actuation system (hydraulical/mechanical) hydraulic
Center distance Input/Differential F40: 197mm
Length 354mm (Epsilon1), 372mm (GMC)
Weight (dry): F40 (FWD): 54 kg; F40 (AWD): 55kg
Clutch size: 240mm and 250mm
Synchronization: 1st-2nd: 3 cone, 3rd-4th: 2 cone, 5th-6th: 1 cone, rev.:2 cone
Transmission fluid: BOT 402
Assembly site: Russelsheim, Germany

Applications:
Buick Regal
Buick Regal GS

Gearsets MR6
1st: 3.917
2nd 2.040
3rd 1.321
4th 0.954
5th 0.755
6th: 0.623
R: 3.750

Final Drives
GY6 3.762
2009 F40 (MK6)
General Motors Powertrain-Europe F40 six-speed manual car transaxle
2009 Model Year Summary

Carryover Features and Benefits from 2008i model year

ALL WHEEL DRIVE ADOPTION
The transmission housings are reinforced and elongated for bigger clutch size, 250 mm. The differential is upgraded concerning size and material in order to withstand higher output torque for AWD system.


GEAR RATIO CHANGES FOR QUICKER ACCELERATION
To adapt the F40 to high engine torque applications and maximize performance, 1st gear is changed to lower ratio now 3.92:1. 2nd through 5th gears are unchanged. 6th gear is now longer now 0.74:1 compared to MU9 in 2008 model year. The final drive is changed from 3,545 to 3,762.

LOW MAINTENANCE

The MT2/MU9/MK6 uses a Castrol Burmah (BOT 0402) manual transmission fluid, and is validated as "fill-for-life". No maintenance is required for normal operation.

OVERVIEW

Originally a design developed for Fiat, Opel and Saab applications, the F40 (MT2) is a GM Powertrain - Europe six-speed manual transaxle built in Russelsheim, Germany. Its first use in a North American application was the Pontiac G6 for the 2006 model year. It is also used in some Saab 9-3.

It is a three-axis design, with first, second, fifth, and sixth gears on an output shaft behind and below the input shaft, and third and fourth gears are on an output shaft in front of and above the input shaft. Both output shaft pinions drive a helical gear with a conventional differential. The clutch is mounted on a dual-mass flywheel to dampen vibrations on whichever output shaft is idle depending upon which gear is selected.

The F40 is cast in aluminum, and weighs 124 pounds (see specs). It has been certified for up to 400 Nm of engine torque.

Triple-cone synchronizers are used on 1st and 2nd gears. These synchronizers have three friction surfaces, which increase their ability to transfer the flow of torque more smoothly from one gear to another. Synchronizers act as clutches to speed up or slow down the gearsets that are being shifted to, and greater friction area results in easier shifting for the driver. The 3rd, 4th, and reverse synchronizers are double-cone, while the 5th and 6th gear synchronizers are single-cone. All of the friction surfaces on the synchronizer rings are sintered bronze. The ratios in the 6-speed are widely spaced for versatile performance and efficiency.
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FieroWanaBe1
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

I am just about to pull the trigger to on a 9-3 F40 to build my best I-could-do six speed combo, we will find out if they are compatible throughout the years.

Anything post 2009 I am assuming will not be, since it looks like GM changed the Diff and Clutch to larger diameters, doesn't matter to me, since I don't care about those ratios.

Final Drive from 2003 FM68: 3.91
1st from MT2: 3.77 overall 14.74
2nd from MT2: 2.04 overall 7.67 split .54
Third from MU9 1.37 overall 5.15 split .67
4th from MU9 1.05 overall 3.95 split .77
5th from MU9 0.85 overall 3.20 split .81
6th from MT2 0.62 overall 2.78 split .73

I currently have a NOS MT2 for a 2006 G6, an 85,000mile MU9 from a 2007 G6, and hopefully will soon have 110,000mile FM68 from a 2003 9-3.
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FieroWanaBe1
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

I think this is fitting here.

https://www.short-shifters.com/v-shift- ... r-kit.html

Short throw linkage for the F40 transmission.
Last edited by FieroWanaBe1 on Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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The Dark Side of Will
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

FieroWanaBe1 wrote: Anything post 2009 I am assuming will not be, since it looks like GM changed the Diff and Clutch to larger diameters, doesn't matter to me, since I don't care about those ratios.
I had not heard that. Is that in the GM Powertrain media archive? The larger diff sounds interesting for those of us at or above 350 ftlbs. Sounds like you think it's a larger ring gear diameter. That would be a big change as it would require a new case. Might just be a larger carrier like they did for the 282 when they started to put it behind/beside the 3.1.
FieroWanaBe1
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

ALL WHEEL DRIVE ADOPTION
The transmission housings are reinforced and elongated for bigger clutch size, 250 mm. The differential is upgraded concerning size and material in order to withstand higher output torque for AWD system.
Im assuming the larger clutch diameter and elongated housing added for the AWD Saab's in 2009 moved the radial distance between the input and output firther apart. Making the ring gear larger to accommodate would increase the final drive as well, just like they state it did from 3.545 to 3.762. Pure conjecture on my part. The stated distance for the MR6 version and the MU9 are both 197mm so that theory is probably bunk.
Also to note, the differential is stronger in 2009 and newer versions, and there is also a Quaife ATB and Eaton Wavetrac differential avaialable for these transaxles.
http://www.regalautosport.com/shop/Wave ... 9CDTI.html
https://shop.quaife.co.uk/saab-gm-f40-q ... fferential
As far as years of compatibily :unknown:
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FieroWanaBe1
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

GM published this file (11_F40_MR6.xls) for the 2012 F40. All the ratios I can find are on here.
Attachments
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FieroWanaBe1
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

It would appear the FV2 ratio (4.120) is from a Sonic. However that's not an F40 gearbox, its am M32 . I doubt it was used stateside, probably on some Opel Wagon or Vauxhall Delivery Van.
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The Saab '03/'04 with FX2 FD and MT2 gears + the '07 G6 gearbox with V6/60 bellhousing and MU9 gears sound like a good combo to put together.

I suspect that the lenght [sic] difference is just related to the transfer gearbox for the AWD version.

Not sure if the FV2 RPO is also used for a Sonic, but I thought the Turbo Buick cars used an FD in that range.
FieroWanaBe1
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

Everything I have seen says the Regal GS is using a 3.762 on the LTG engine
Anything on the smaller turbo motors is the M32 that I have seen. .
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

20170331_202523.jpg
20170331_202523.jpg (93.74 KiB) Viewed 5173 times
Ive recieved the saab transmission last week. I verified that in 1st gear, it took 14.75 turns to roughly get 1 full rotation of the output.
FieroWanaBe1
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

$T2eC16h,!)!E9s2fDwrYBRlUTIHe0Q--60_1.JPG
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$_1.JPG
$_1.JPG (30.02 KiB) Viewed 5167 times
Check oute the case reinforcements for the 2.0T version if the F40.
It is cool to see the case reinforcement progression from the saab box, to the G6 box, to the regal box. If it was feasable financially and mechanically I would run the buick case.
But my plans dictate the use of the Metric pattern with the LS4.
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

I have an '06 or '07 MU9 Saab unit with the high feature V6 pattern. I'll use it with a DI 3.6 in my Formula after a while. I'd like to swap in the MT2 6th, though.

I need to snag the 3.91 Saab box and the MU9 G6 box too.
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

FieroWanaBe1 wrote:20170331_202523.jpg
Ive recieved the saab transmission last week. I verified that in 1st gear, it took 14.75 turns to roughly get 1 full rotation of the output.

Did you get this from a place in Lancaster, MA?
FieroWanaBe1
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

No. It was from somewhere in Michigan.
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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

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Re: Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

Apparantly,
Opel Insignias with the A20DTH diesel engines equipped with a FWD F40, have a 3.06 Final (MYJ Gearing RPO, F84 Final RPO)

1st 4.167
2nd 2.130
3rd 1.321
4th 0.954
5th 0.755
6th 0.623
Rev 3.917
Final 3.090

http://vxoc.org.uk/download/VXOC%20docs ... ations.pdf
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