87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Real tech discussion on design, fabrication, testing, development of custom or adapted parts for Pontiac Fieros. Not questions about the power a CAI will give.

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FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

Here are some pictures from the move, and the CNC-Plasma build.

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The table is water tight! woot woot.
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FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

I have been slowly making progress:

Made a makeshift chassis rotisserie for sand blasting and seam welding:
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I've since added a small support between stands to stabilize them.
The front has been blasted and is about 95% done being stitch welded.
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I have started drilling out spot-welds on all the little brackets that are no longer needed.
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I hop to make lots of progress this winter, especially within the next 12 days.
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Series8217
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by Series8217 »

Nice!

Did happen to find any factory welds coming apart anywhere?
FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

All the spot welds appear to be holding, but some of the overlapping metal, looks to be separating slightly at the front lower rails where the cross-member bolts in. It could be from poor contact at the factory, or years of wear and tear. Ill grab some pictures on Monday.
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FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

I also have my CNC plasma working.
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I'm trying to find rust free rear lower frame rails, but if I cant I guess I will cut new ones out with this.
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crzyone
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by crzyone »

This is a sweet thread. I've thought about buying an N/A FC to turn into a LeMons car and go racing on the cheap. This build is much further that I've seen someone go for a Chump car.
FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

Here are closer pictures of the seam welding so far on the front. Some more stripping took place, this time with a tool called the Crud Thug. Monday there should be some welding done to the remaining seams. It's too cold here to blast outside, the gun will ice up. You can see that the spot welds and gaps on some brackets leave a lot to be desired.
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The welds are very ugly. The paint/coating and for some seam sealer is underneath all these laps. Contaminating most of the welds and makes running beads impossible. Instead Tacks are made one at a time for about an inch, skipping every two, for around 30% welded area.


I cut out the rot in the key structural areas.
Monday the rear upper rails will be welded in.
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Here is the inside of the rear B-Pillar/Side structure.
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What was left of the rear upper frame rails:
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Monday I am finishing up on the the rear hub/bearing work. I will provide more details then.
I am still looking for some rust free rear lower rails to weld in, all offers I have been given are way too expensive for this project.
Lets hope the little extra attention this car will receive will payoff
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Shaun41178(2)
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

awesome thread loving the progress so far. Has anyone weighed the spaceframe by itself to know what it weighs? I am ki d of curious.

I first heard of seam welding back in the late 90s with Hondas and they claimed it made a huge impact on chassis stiffness and there being less flex through corners providing better stability as well as predictability
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Series8217
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by Series8217 »

Shaun41178(2) wrote:awesome thread loving the progress so far. Has anyone weighed the spaceframe by itself to know what it weighs? I am ki d of curious.
I've heard 600 pounds. Here's a source: http://goo.gl/X7QC9e
FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

Shaun41178(2) wrote:awesome thread loving the progress so far. Has anyone weighed the spaceframe by itself to know what it weighs? I am ki d of curious.

I first heard of seam welding back in the late 90s with Hondas and they claimed it made a huge impact on chassis stiffness and there being less flex through corners providing better stability as well as predictability
As much as I would love to take the scientific approach to developing the chassis on this, I would rather us a sledgehammer and change all the things I see as needing work. Which includes many of the spot-welded suspension brackets. Pontiac took great length to reinforce the mounting areas of the rear lower control arm bushing, and then used two 8mm spot welds per panel, I think gains could be seen there over time, probably not immediately but towards the longevity of the frame.
The previous e30 frame had seen some separation that had to be patched up, especially near rot.

Since this chassis was so far gone, it will be interesting to see how all this work compares to my fairly intact 86GT. I feel the stich welding is needed since I can possibly see where rot has really taken a toll. Some flange areas have become so thin I can pull the metal out with my fingers. I have been joking that we are building a tube frame car inside the Fiero shell.

On weight right now, no one has struggled to lift one end of the frame up for moving by ourselves. And it could be carried by three or four people if needed.
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FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

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For the rear hub carrier setup:
I bought two SKF 4x4 S10 hubs. One looks like a true skf and the other looks as if it came from overseas. The OD of the stepped surfaces differed by .010 and may cause some issues. I had my machinist uncle make some rings to have the bearings be one uniform OD, they are chamfered to clear the radius that the OH unit had at the transision. The material is 8620
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on the unit marked Cleveland OH, the ring was a .000 fit. The other unit had to be pressed on, and it stretched the ring quite a bit.
A set of Olds Calais Front Hub Carriers were bored open the OD of the S10 HUB. The bolt holes were drilled out and slotted to take bolts from the axles side of the carrier.
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The American made bearing fits perfectly in the carrier.
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The other unit is back at the machine shop being reworked since the ring is now to large to fit in the carrier.

Bearings and seals are in from NAPA for the front Small Chevy hubs. I will be using these on Street Dreams 2" drop spindles.
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I need to measure the bearing stops to give my uncle some dimensions to machine them to (1/8" sounds to arbitrary), as well as have rings made to match the seal.
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The Dark Side of Will
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

FieroWanaBe1 wrote:on the unit marked Cleveland OH, the ring was a .000 fit. The other unit had to be pressed on, and it stretched the ring quite a bit.
A set of Olds Calais Front Hub Carriers were bored open the OD of the S10 HUB. The bolt holes were drilled out and slotted to take bolts from the axles side of the carrier.
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The American made bearing fits perfectly in the carrier.
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The other unit is back at the machine shop being reworked since the ring is now to large to fit in the carrier.

You'll want to spot face those holes so that the bolt heads/washers have a flat surface to seat on.
FieroWanaBe1 wrote: Bearings and seals are in from NAPA for the front Small Chevy hubs. I will be using these on Street Dreams 2" drop spindles.
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I need to measure the bearing stops to give my uncle some dimensions to machine them to (1/8" sounds to arbitrary), as well as have rings made to match the seal.
What application?
I assume you'll need additional machine work to use them on the Fiero spindles (or do you have a set of the *ALUMINUM* Street dreams spindles?)
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Series8217
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by Series8217 »

I wouldn't use the Chinese hub. Lots of flange failures on the Yahoo Fiero Racing List for almost all aftermarket hubs of any kind. Sure, the S10 is a bit beefier, but why risk it? A rear hub breaking off at speed is no joke.
FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

The front hubs are for GM short spindle cars. the fiero.com crowd call it a "Corvair hub swap." But you can find the hubs just about any small front drum GM car from the mid sixties and later. I paid 45$ for both shipped.

The s10 rear hub, it is difficult to find stock of non-ABS front hubs for s10's from SKF. I ordered the only one in stock at the time from Rock Auto, I had to buy the other from Ebay, and it was not similar out of the box to the RockAuto one. The Rock Auto unit was the one marked Cleveland OH.
The OH unit clearly has a one piece stub axle assembly, I don't have the other unit near me right now to see if is different or not.
I will probably order another set of hubs from NAPA (there preferred supplier for bearing and hubs is SKF, though I have seen they also use NTN) for backup and have extra rings made, since the program is saved on the cnc lathe.
If you cant tell, I prefer to us SKF bearings over all other brands.
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ericjon262
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by ericjon262 »

been a while, any updates on this?
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FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

Things have happened, I will update soon.
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

There has been progress.
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Im am doing the cage with my friend and shop owner, it's our first cage. I made the decision to use a halo bar because we could tuck it closer to the roof if it was a closer to the sunroof than a-pillars. That means we need to lean the seat back more to allow more head room. It will be tight inside.
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So having never seen a Northstar powered car complete a race, we had a long hard think about powertrain. and I was pulling this motor out of my white 86GT. It was decided that this may be a better choice that's easier to pass with new chump car rules.
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Some spare cams I had were reconditioned, should help make not using the 4.0L more worthwhile. SLR Cams did the work. I have the lighter (and less costly) 35mm buckets to go along with these bump-sticks.

Right now I have the engine completely tore down to have the "cam" bearings replaced at the machine shop and the galleries cleaned. I tried renting a tool from AutoZone and pulling them myself with no luck. The tool just slipped and eventually broke one of the base expanding dies, I cut the first bearing up and pounded It out with a pry-bar. So, I'll stop messing around. I have the wider SBC cam bearings to go in-place of stock, King 270 degree main bearings, Cleveite tri-metal rod bearings, ARP rod-bolts, Fel-Pro gasket kit, and a 3-angle valve job on the head (no-idea what angles) and some needed shims on the valve springs. Hopefully I can get around to trying a quick clean up on the ports to remove the sharp edges and transition in the bowls.
We will run an air-to-oil thermostatic oil cooler in the car, and some changes to the intake manifold to shorten the runners.
The cage at this point is 80% done, some reinforcements and the tie in bars past the front firewall are needed and then I can concentrate on getting the front suspension in the car and put together. It will use sweet dreams cast steel Spindles and hub/brake change from 5x100 to 5x4.75 with 13" vette rotors/calipers. We have all new Moog problem solver balljoints for all the joints and some used poly bushings, with the stock sway bar to put up front. We will most likely use KYB shocks because of the 500$ cap unless I can figure a way to squeeze in just Konis for the front only. I have some old Mercedes 190E springs that have the right overall diameters with thicker coils, I may try to cut them down to the proper length and use those in the front for more rate.
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FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

I see some of the frame repair wasn't reported either. Here it is:
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Every Visible seam on the repair in the rear was welded fully. I can grab better finished pics. The side rails and floor in the cab were stitch welded. The seams on the factory sheet are done with 70% of the seams having been stitch welded 1" on 3". There was a lot of delam in the rear that this should help fight off. We will build up structure to mount the body to in the rear using smaller diameter tube (1" to 1.5"). We will have dies for those for the mandrel bender. I also bought some dimple dies and a bead roller for the cage tie-plates, firewall fill panels, and the replacement sheeting in the rear. There is still a lot more metal work needed as you can see.
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Emc209i
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by Emc209i »

What are you putting back into the white car?
FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

Emc209i wrote:What are you putting back into the white car?
That car is getting an dry-sumped LS4 and '07 F40 and 88 Cradle
Here are the finished welded rear frame rails, I blame the ugly welds on the quality of the old metal it has a lot of corrosion on the backside.
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