87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Real tech discussion on design, fabrication, testing, development of custom or adapted parts for Pontiac Fieros. Not questions about the power a CAI will give.

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FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

Ill probably go with the Bosch pump I see then.

I also need to get the injectors cleaned. I am debating if I should swap them out for something up in flow size...
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Shaun41178(2)
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

No need for larger injectors unless you are going to make considerable more power than stock. Technically gm oversized the injectors from the factory as on stock applications duty cycle never hits 100%. Factory is prob 85-90%. I recommend just a cleaning and flow match. If you want more flow bump up the fuel pressure 5-10 lbs
FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

The reconditioned cams maybe have a touch more duration.
like around 30 degrees more, and maybe 25 thousands more lift.
There was a good amount of cleaning up the grinder had to do... :wink:
That coupled with a mailbox for an intake manifold, I am hoping to open up the top end a few ponies and RPM, like 15%.
Ive added a crank scraper and the lightweight lifters... not power adders but should be worth a percent or two in efficiency.
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Shaun41178(2) wrote:stock applications duty cycle never hits 100%. Factory is prob 85-90%.
You never want to see 100% duty cycle... 85-90% is pretty aggressive, actually.

As the DC increases, there comes a point at which the injector can not fully close before it opens again. At this DC, the fuel delivery abruptly bumps from whatever it was up to static flow... It's basically the other end of the scale from what happens when trying to get an injector to accurately control fuel at it's dead time pulse width. It's not good for mixture control, and pretty hard on the injector, as it's developing a lot of waste heat due to electrical resistance.
FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

I'm currently on the look for some larger injectors.
The engine otherwise is going together fine. Bottom end is stock with King 3/4 groove bearings, Steel Crank Scraper, ARP rod bolts, and Tri-Metal Clevite bearings
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We are using the fel-pro full gasket set, and a Oil-pump/dizzy o-ring from the dealer.
Putting the camshafts on is a pain though. Had to turn the engine upside down and put them on that way to keep the lifters in. It's a bit more troubling than I want getting the cast impeller waterpump, the Bosch unit's photos did not represent the Chinese piece of crap i received with a sheet-metal impeller. According the the Napa employee, the refurb unit we ordered will have the cast impeller.Time to start working on the steering next.
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draven
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by draven »

so clevite tri-metal on the rods and king for the mains?

96 or 97 stock ecu? The 97 can be tuned with Hptuners or JET Performance tuner.

Stock exhaust?
FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

I had Clevite Tri-metal Main bearings at first but the oil-groove terminated at 180 degrees, lowering the oil supply to the rod journals compared to the 270 degree groove of the bi-metal King bearings. For those the do not know, the tri-metal Clevites have a steel backing and are stronger (stiffer) than a bi-metal which normally have an aluminum backing, like the King bearings used.
Oil Groove read:
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29638
I expect the rod bearings to be the items at highest risk of failure, my part choices favor the rod bearing longevity over main bearings.

The engine is a 96. The ECU I have is a 94, I will be tuning with an AutoProm.

Exhaust is stock manifolds. I don't think I can get by the judges with any type of headers this year, after a couple races, we will acquire upgrade funds, so they are a possibility.
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draven
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by draven »

FieroWanaBe1 wrote:I had Clevite Tri-metal Main bearings at first but the oil-groove terminated at 180 degrees, lowering the oil supply to the rod journals compared to the 270 degree groove of the bi-metal King bearings. For those the do not know, the tri-metal Clevites have a steel backing and are stronger (stiffer) than a bi-metal which normally have an aluminum backing, like the King bearings used.
Oil Groove read:
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29638
I expect the rod bearings to be the items at highest risk of failure, my part choices favor the rod bearing longevity over main bearings.

The engine is a 96. The ECU I have is a 94, I will be tuning with an AutoProm.

Exhaust is stock manifolds. I don't think I can get by the judges with any type of headers this year, after a couple races, we will acquire upgrade funds, so they are a possibility.
I had a discussion with the guys at Ball Engine in Georgia about this. I wanted the king bearings for the oiling groove but they recommended the tri-metal all the way due to my forced induction aspirations. Although not grooved the tri-metal mahle/clevite mains do have an extra set of feed holes as recommended by the 60* performance manual.. As you probably already know King doesn't make and tri metals for the LQ1

Did you have the rotating assembly balanced?

I will be paying even closer attention to this thread now..

Lastly, I'm submitting the final template adjustments to a laser cutting facility for the 96-97 LQ1 header flanges for myself and mugsman... let me know if you're interested (or anyone else) and I'll forward you the info to order a set.
FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

The assembly was not altered from the factory balance.
The rods and pistons were reconditioned and re-sized to the factory spec.
The additional holes don't do anything to feed pressurized oil at anything past the 180degree range.
I did not have the crank cross-drilled, but if I did I would use tri-metal 180 degree bearings. At that point there is oil to the rod journal for all crank degrees. Most failures I saw documented on the V6 engines in racing have been connecting rod related.

As far as flanges. I have the ability to cut my own, not pretty but it costs me only material. If I know the price it will help me determine if it makes sense to go in on the purchase.
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draven
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by draven »

FieroWanaBe1 wrote:The assembly was not altered from the factory balance.
The rods and pistons were reconditioned and re-sized to the factory spec.
The additional holes don't do anything to feed pressurized oil at anything past the 180degree range.
I did not have the crank cross-drilled, but if I did I would use tri-metal 180 degree bearings. At that point there is oil to the rod journal for all crank degrees. Most failures I saw documented on the V6 engines in racing have been connecting rod related.

As far as flanges. I have the ability to cut my own, not pretty but it costs me only material. If I know the price it will help me determine if it makes sense to go in on the purchase.
Currently the price is 80$ a set for SS304 stainless and I just sent another email to the fabricator for the price of mild steel.
FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

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Cam timing set.
108 Intake Centerline
112 Exhaust Centerline

The engine is altogether. Had to get a Napa rebuild pump in order to get the right impeller.
The Bosch was stamped steel, I'll keep it as backup.
I am concentrating most of the effort on a F-body steering rack right now.

EDIT: just realized The cam was installed at 108 centerline not 104. Half the difference from stock and the grinder's recommendation.
Last edited by FieroWanaBe1 on Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Shaun41178(2)
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

looking good
FieroPhrek working on that ls4 swap for 18 years and counting now. 18 years!!!!! LOL

530 whp is greater than 312
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Great to see it going together the way it should... with a degree wheel.
FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

I did Verify that the TDC mark was right, but its not the easiest to center on, and the factory flats are at 112 centers. I finally found my adjustable cam tool I bought a long time ago, So I will recheck with that to mark it appropriately so I can do some quick timing tests when we go to the dyno.
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FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

Ok steering time.
Knowing I would never be happy with the factory steering I did get a rack from a 1995 V8 firebird:
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The motor now carries a rebuilt factory pump:
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I'm not a fan of West Coast Fiero's kit, So please keep posted to see how I will accomplish the addition of power steering.
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A common issue Ive seen on Fiero steering rack is the corrosion that builds up under the rubber mounts, and that leads to failure.
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I bought a Junk yard GT rack to replace it, although not failed it is corroded.
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More reason to ditch this rack.

First I tacked my crossmember to the welding table with the rack mounted:
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I measured up the width of the stock rack and placement of the pinion shaft.
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I built some stands to hold up the tie rod attachment stubs and the pinion shaft
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Gone with the mounts:
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And jotted down the specs needed to put the Fiero tie rods in the right place on the Fbody Rack:
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Cut them on the lathe, and cheated by cutting the threads with a die not on the lathe:
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Its hard to see with this photograph, but I had to cut out a box to make room for the hard mount on the driver's side FBody rack:
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And you can now see how far off the pinion shaft is:
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More to come...
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edit:
I used a die, not a tap to cut external threads. duh.
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Identity Crisis
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by Identity Crisis »

Where the hell is the rest of this build? WHAAA!
2015 Dodge Journey RT Rally AWD
2014 Dodge Ram 1500 Sport
1992 Pontiac Grand Prix STE
1987 Pontiac Fiero GT
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT
FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

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Just going to post pictures on here for a update....
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FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

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FieroWanaBe1
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by FieroWanaBe1 »

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Progress has been slowly happening. I am preparing the engine to run on the Stuska engine dyno at my work.
Still need an NVRAM chip for the 7165 ECU. Wiring this weekend. The car is getting together too.
More to come this weekend.
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Shaun41178(2)
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Re: 87 Fastback L47 Chump Car/ Lemons Project.

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

that plenum is huge. its gotta be like 600 cubic inches. you measure it?
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