My NEW fiero turbo setup

Real tech discussion on design, fabrication, testing, development of custom or adapted parts for Pontiac Fieros. Not questions about the power a CAI will give.

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The Dark Side of Will
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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The learning curve has to start somewhere. I've said and done dumb things during the course of my Northstar build.
Shaun41178(2) wrote:so I don't lose the love and admiration of my fellow RFT posters.
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Look at those shiny clamps! So good looking.

Another video
https://youtu.be/9AdNmmNR-UM
Oooh, shiny.

Good to see you stuck with the throttle per cylinder intake manifold. Are your problems right now related more to that hardware, or to tuning? Or to tuning with that hardware?
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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

I would say there are no major issues right now. There are a couple of minor things, but with this being a custom setup, certain things I have to live with, and since its a weekend warrior, the minor issues are very easy to live with.

1. Idle. When first fired up, the idle is good right around 900-1k. as the car warms up, the idle climbs to around 1300. Seeing as how this is a racecar intake, I live with it. It loses that lope as the rpms come up, but thats no big deal. I think the issue is in the tune. I think its a correlation between coolant temps, and the iac valve. As coolant temps rise, so does the idle. I will have to check with Ryan about that and see if it is correctable.

2.Tuning is just as easy on this ITb intake as it was on my single throttle iron head engine. My afrs are easy to dial in, and timing is easy too. I have talked with Ryan about more timing since I am running e85. Timing on 10 lbs is only like 13 degrees which is holding me back power wise. I have sent him some new timing maps to make, just haven't pulled the trigger yet. Its already making a ton of power on only 13 degrees and 10 lbs as is and I am sure the stock parts aren't liking it.

3.It does take a bit to learn to drive it. Much less throttle input on the right foot is needed to get going and to accelerate from say 50-60. Its just light touches unless you want to lay into it.

Synopsis; I am very happy overall with how it has turned out. throttle response is great, and with the ported heads, large plenum,lightweight flywheel, and top end cam, this thing climbs hard passed 5k rpm whereas my old iron head was meh comparatively speaking. The power it is making is unbelievable for the boost its running. I totally underestimated just how much power it was going to make, and how fast the car was going to be, when I was building this setup. Its faster than a new stock mustang gt, and new camaro SS, in line with a new Stang gt350r and not far off from a new z06. A tad more boost would put me with a new STOCK z06. With the higher compression, E85, and turbo efficiency, its a strong runner that has really impressed me

Ill prob look to drive it a small amount this summer, and more in the fall when its cooler as I have no a/c in it. Then if the setup hasn't blown up yet, as I plan to keep increasing the boost, I'll junk the shortblock and part out the top end and install my 3900 lz9 project I have on the engine stand.
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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Shaun41178(2) wrote:I would say there are no major issues right now. There are a couple of minor things, but with this being a custom setup, certain things I have to live with, and since its a weekend warrior, the minor issues are very easy to live with.

1. Idle. When first fired up, the idle is good right around 900-1k. as the car warms up, the idle climbs to around 1300. Seeing as how this is a racecar intake, I live with it. It loses that lope as the rpms come up, but thats no big deal. I think the issue is in the tune. I think its a correlation between coolant temps, and the iac valve. As coolant temps rise, so does the idle. I will have to check with Ryan about that and see if it is correctable.

2.Tuning is just as easy on this ITb intake as it was on my single throttle iron head engine. My afrs are easy to dial in, and timing is easy too. I have talked with Ryan about more timing since I am running e85. Timing on 10 lbs is only like 13 degrees which is holding me back power wise. I have sent him some new timing maps to make, just haven't pulled the trigger yet. Its already making a ton of power on only 13 degrees and 10 lbs as is and I am sure the stock parts aren't liking it.

3.It does take a bit to learn to drive it. Much less throttle input on the right foot is needed to get going and to accelerate from say 50-60. Its just light touches unless you want to lay into it.

Synopsis; I am very happy overall with how it has turned out. throttle response is great, and with the ported heads, large plenum,lightweight flywheel, and top end cam, this thing climbs hard passed 5k rpm whereas my old iron head was meh comparatively speaking. The power it is making is unbelievable for the boost its running. I totally underestimated just how much power it was going to make, and how fast the car was going to be, when I was building this setup. Its faster than a new stock mustang gt, and new camaro SS, in line with a new Stang gt350r and not far off from a new z06. A tad more boost would put me with a new STOCK z06. With the higher compression, E85, and turbo efficiency, its a strong runner that has really impressed me

Ill prob look to drive it a small amount this summer, and more in the fall when its cooler as I have no a/c in it. Then if the setup hasn't blown up yet, as I plan to keep increasing the boost, I'll junk the shortblock and part out the top end and install my 3900 lz9 project I have on the engine stand.
It's really awesome to hear that it's all coming together and synergizing... and that it's really fast. Get some dyno curves.

1. Have you blocked off the IAC and tried starting it? Is the air that lets it idle at 900 RPM a leak, base airflow with closed IAC or the IAC's home postiion? If your base airflow with the IAC fully closed gives you 900 RPM, then you will not be able to control the idle any lower than about 1300, as the IAC won't be able to close much further than that. You want your base idle airflow with a closed IAC to result in more like a 400 RPM idle... that way when it's passing enough air to bring the idle up to 800-900 RPM, the IAC is in the 35-40 step range, which is the sweet spot for having control authority to either speed up or slow down the engine.

2. It's great that it's easy to tune. ITB's can be finnicky with the MAP signal on MAP systems, but generally require almost no accel enrichment or decel enleanment, so they're very easy to tune in that regard. Once you have a plumbing setup that gives you a solid MAP signal, you're golden.

3. The six throttles working together give you *WAY* more throttle area for air to get into the engine at *WAY* lower pedal angles than a single or dual throttle would. You can compensate for this with a progressive throttle cam that opens the throttles very slowly in the first half of pedal travel and then more quickly in the second half.

Why would you part it out? Think your plenum won't take that much boost? Or just that the intake doesn't fit the Gen IV (Gen V?) heads?
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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

I have started it with the iac blocked off. cold start is right around 600 rpm or so. When hot its right aruond 900-1k with it blocked off if memory is correct. I tried it this way but it fouled one of my plugs. The butterflys aren't 100% perfect in every cylinder. Prob closer to 98% but its a one off peice so I cant expect perfection, which is why I have chosen to live with the slightly higher idle, vs fouling plugs and having a factory idle speed. One cylinder fouls because it is probably 100% sealed so without any air from the iac it fouls the plug. If I wanted 100% perfection on the idle and have it work like factory, I would want to have the intake bores honed perfectly round, then have all new butterflies cut again for each individual cylinder vs 6 generic ones made for the average bore of each port. Thats more money and time, and as it is, its "good enough for who its for"

The computer has a steady and even vacuum signal. I drilled additonal ports post butterfly to feed vacuum from. Those lines feed to a vacuum block, then feed the map. So its essentially like stock. Vacuum gauge verifies 10 in/hg at idle and its rock steady. it took more work, but I am happier to have done it.

you are correct with the lower pedal angles. any slight movement of the pedal commands all 6 butterflys to open. So where I might have needed 10% throttle input I only need 5% now. Keeping a steady pace at 70 mph, takes very little overall pedal movement. I will have to measure the tps voltage next time its out cruising to see what it needs to be at. I am not using a progressive throttle cam, nor will be installing one. It took a day to figure out how to redrive the car. Not a big deal.

The gen 2 heads and ITB intake "do not fit" the 3900 block. The combustion chambers aren't centered in the bore, nor do the coolant ports line up from the block to the head. I posted pics of all this in my 3900 info thread here. Technically it might work, but I am not interested in trying. the CC is only off by 1.5mm which isn't much so thats prob not a big deal. however I expect there would be a coolant leak at the headgasket somewhere. Also the ports in the itb intake don't lineup with the ports in the 3900 heads so I can't just swap the intake on it. I posted pics of that already. the 3900 heads have a much taller port.

My plenum will easily handle more boost. its 1/8th thick
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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

That's what I was asking... if it's a leak by the throttle plates, then it's probably a fairly extensive effort to seal it off well enough to idle lower. That would make it not worth the payoff for you, although if you're going to try to sell it later, that will go easier if you have a video of it idling flawlessly.

How much did the throttle plates set you back?

Shaun happy to have done more work for a better result? The universe is still a place of wonder and miracles. :wink:

It's not a matter of TPS voltage... it's a result of the throttles themselves opening to a larger area at the same TPS% when compared to a single or dual throttle. You should retune where in the throttle curve your power enrichment mode kicks in. Right now you could have it trying to stay in closed loop and dither stoich when it's at a high enough MAP that it should be in open loop and commanding a lower AFR.

I'm well aware of all the things you've posted about the port/bore/etc. mismatches between the 99mm blocks/heads and the 92 & 94mm blocks/heads. That being said, the throttle plates are pretty huge for the V6/60 displacement, so there may be room to achieve a good taper from throttle to valve even after the ports are welded up to seal and opened up to match. Yes, it would take a lot of welding.

If your plenum is 12" square, and you have 10 psi of boost, you have 1440 pounds of force trying to rip the lid off your plenum. At 15 psi that's 2160 lbs. It appears to be welded well, so it'll definitely stay together, but it'll also definitely balloon a bit. I don't know if it will *stay* ballooned, but you may notice the top gets round over time.
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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

I think the new butterflys were under $200. Like $150 ish maybe. I don't quite remember. maxbore.com. he changed the taper of the butterfly to like 7 degrees I think, and cut the blades. I reassembled everything.

I will leave it to you to weld up the ports on your intake for 3900 heads. you gotta get yours back first though.
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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by Aaron »

I know it's kind of, a little bit, apples to oranges, but how do the OEM plenums stay together? Mine is just molded plastic, looks identical to the N/A ones, and carries 21psi daily. Others are running the same plenum up to 30.
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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

On Shaun's I'm referring to the great big flat roof. With maybe 3 gussets inside to tie the roof and floor together, it would be a non-issue.

As far as OE manifolds go, it's more about the surface area of the plenum than anything else. Also, your plenum is probably much closer to round than Shaun's is, and cylinders are almost ideal shapes for pressure vessels because the material shape is the same as that of the hoop stress.
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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

So I had a knock in the engine. It was def coming from the bottom end. I thought it was a rod at first till I pulled the engine.
originally posted by p8intman
and when the outer ring slips on the rubber?
I did one better than that.
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After 28 years she had enough New one is on its way.
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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by Series8217 »

Wow! Was the ring just hanging on the crankshaft pulley or did it come off in your hand?

I just got a new one for mine. Rubber is all pooched out from oil exposure and probably headed towards a failure like yours...
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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

The outer ring was still sitting on the inner balancer, but the alignment was off. I noticed something shiny and upon closer inspection saw the otter run had slipped out of alignment. The outer ring was not all the way off but I gave it a slight tug and it was def loose so I kept going and was able to take it off by hand.


I'll prob have everything back in this weekend
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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Another issue creeped up. Flywheel bolts backed out. I used loctite blue putting it back together and properly torqued. Its back in, just gotta hook everything back up. Weather is cooling off so it will be nice to drive it regularly now

https://youtu.be/54L788FRMoU
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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by Emc209i »

Have you been on a dyno yet?
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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Getting boost controller setup on the street so I can make quick changes on the dyno in an effort to save time. Also getting the fuel dialed in too on the street. I have it set for 5,10,15, and 20lbs. I had to figure out how many turns did what to the boost. Its hard to do runs on the street on over 15 lbs it gets to 120 very quickly in 4th. I'll prob have to finalize it on the dyno as street is just too dangerous.

Hopefully by Feb ill have a hard sheet to post. The dyno shops in town closed down or wont let non race teams dyno for insurance purposes. I'll prob have to take it to VMP out in deland
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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by Emc209i »

Oh cool. In the meantime, stop throwing that bullshit number around. You're worse than a piffler.
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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Still runs. Still no dyno. However...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWRjumVVOD0
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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

welp was able to figure out a workaround for the high idle. now its around 1k rpm or so. sounds better at a light now


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPx_5RdtUzo
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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by shemdogg »

Awesome thread, awesome build, awesome kill on that mustang. congrats on building a bad ass car

mosta the pics dont work tho :-x

shem
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Aaron
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Re: My NEW turbo setup

Post by Aaron »

Awesome dyno.

Oh wait, forgot. Oh the hypocrisy.
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