Tilton Clutch

Real tech discussion on design, fabrication, testing, development of custom or adapted parts for Pontiac Fieros. Not questions about the power a CAI will give.

Moderators: The Dark Side of Will, Series8217

The Dark Side of Will
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Ok, the QM 2007 Application Guide ( http://www.racingclutches.com/~rclutch/ ... _Guide.pdf ) lists:

506626 FLYWHEEL PONTIAC L4 7.25
506630 FLYWHEEL PONTIAC FIERO 7.25
which I've already mentioned.

But I looked a little closer and saw these:
506602 FLYWHEEL AURORA NORTHSTAR 7.25 BTN
506603 FLYWHEEL AURORA/SHELBY 7.25 142
(That means 142 tooth FWD ring gear)

Have a call in to QM about those.
alltrbo
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by alltrbo »

Lunesta makes this thread fuzzy. Will has obviously done most of the research, but I don't understand a lot of it right now. Actually, I'm sleeping with my eyes open.
Anyway, I need to do this. It sounds like the ticket for my turbo "3200" destroker build. For now the Clutchnet "400hp" clutch will work for the TGP 3.1 with the Gen III top end. This shortblock (and clutch) won't handle 30psi like the 3200 will.
I'll read through the thread again later.

Welcome back from the sand box, good sir. Thank you for your service.
Datsun1973
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by Datsun1973 »

I just got off the phone with Jeff at QM. If you send him a flexplate he will drill a blank SBC 5.5 or 7.25 button for your application to stack on top of the flexplate.

The SBC button is .750 tall and the pro series 5.5 clutch (2 disc) has a setup height of 1.5" for a total of 2.250"

I will measure my F23 Transmission (HTOB) tonight and figure out if this is all going to work.

Total cost will be around $750-$1000.

Not too bad when you consider an aluminum flywheel is 300 to 400 plus a decent clutch 200ish.
Datsun1973
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by Datsun1973 »

Just got off the phone with Kirk at Tilton.

I aquired a 5.5" Tilton Clutch 2 disc (550 lb-ft holding torque), P/N 67-302HG. This is a high ratio unit so it won't have much pedal travel as the ultra-high.

Part Number for the discs is 64140-7-AA-12.

They were not interested in drilling a SBC button for the LZ4 flexplate so I'll be getting that from QM. The clutch can be used with any .100 step type button flywheel.

He did recomend a dealer AASCO phone number 714-758-8500 to aquire the discs and they also may custom make a flywheel.
Datsun1973
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by Datsun1973 »

Another Update: I picked up my 20K mile LZ4 this past weekend along with the automatic flexplate.

I will be sending the flexplate to QM to fit a custom button flywheel. They quoted me $370 for the flywheel. Just a few dollars more than a conventionally available aluminum unit.

Tilton was not interested in making the -12 14 spline getrag discs at a reasonable price so QM will be making the 25mm x 14 spline discs for a mere $255. (two discs). These are the "rally" spec ceramettalic discs that do allow for some slipage and modulation over the sintered copper/bronze discs that and just an on/off switch.

All in all the stack up height will be around 2.52" so I'll need to space the Hyd TOB toward the clutch by about .500" or convert to a QM or Tilton HYD TOB with a custom base. The overall clutch height will be around 3.03" so it will clear everything in the bell housing no problem.

I'll post some pictures of the assembled clutch when all the parts arrive in a few weeks.

Hopefully this documentation will help folks solve some of their issues with SPEC and Centerforce clutches blowing up and not being able to handle the power.
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Emc209i
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by Emc209i »

Very helpful, thank you.
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Shaun41178(2)
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

I am waiting to see how this turns out.
FieroPhrek working on that ls4 swap for 18 years and counting now. 18 years!!!!! LOL

530 whp is greater than 312
Datsun1973
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by Datsun1973 »

I got the clutch in today and quickly realized that the stock HTOB that comes with the F23 Transmission will not work with the 5.5" Tilton Clutch. It's diameter is too large. Furthermore, if you don't use the proper 38mm (1.5") contact area then the release loads go up, and with a 750lb release load I don't want this getting any larger.

The base of the HTOB doubles as the front shaft seal for the transmission so just adding a tilton HTOB is out. And besides, at $350 just for the assembly they are too pricey.

After disassembly the F23 HTOB has several pieces, a base/sealing plate, the collar for the internal piston to ride on, a spring (keeps the bearing on the clutch to keep it quiet), a plastic carrier for the bearing and the bearing. In order to disassemble the unit you need to destroy the plastic carrier, it is snapped on from the factory and doesn't appear to come off any other way. The piston is deep inside the base so that won't be damaged. With the carrier removed you can see the inner collar is 1.334 inches in diameter and the outer part is 1.714 in diameter. The plastic carrier was a very loose fitting piece.

The solution is to machine a piston that will ride on the inner collar (basically replacing the plastic carrier) and hold a Tilton 62-008 38mm release bearing. They are available from Pitstopusa.com for $73. The bearing will be held in using a snap ring or spriolock ring to the piston/carrier. The piston/carrier will then slide down onto the collar on the base and is actuated by the stock internal piston.

Also, for reference the piston appears to have an area of .90" squared. This lines up with the other slave cylinders in the getrag's and would work fine with a stock clutch. However, with a 5/8" MC I will still end up with a 46-50lb clutch pedal.
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Emc209i
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by Emc209i »

Can you put up pictures of the installed machined piston when you get that point?
Datsun1973
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by Datsun1973 »

First of all Will, if you feel I've hijacked your thread I'll start a new one. I just thought that since so few of us are attempting this installation that it might be better to make this a more encompassing thread. That said I'll move on.

I finished up designing the piston for the F23 HTOB tonight. I also modeled up the Tilton 62-008 bearing. I should be able to get this machined locally from a piece of billet stainless. Since there is no dust boot I'm thinking that the basic GM HTOB may not last more than 5-10K miles of normal driving. However, if you're installing one of these clutches I'm guessing that won't bother you. Furthermore there is no provision to hold this piston into the base. However, none of the tilton release bearing have this provision either (the piston carriers pull right out).

QM should be shipping the new button, discs and flywheel bolts this week. I would also recomend Aircraft Spruce for the clutch cover to button bolts. Tilton recomends using Aircraft Grade hardware but sells their own bolt kit for around 30-40. I got eight bolts (6 and 2 spares, nuts, washers etc) all for 19 with shipping. I think they were AN5-20F bolts, 21042-5 nuts, and AN 960 washers.

Tilton Clutch Adapter.JPG
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Datsun1973
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by Datsun1973 »

Another quick update.

The flywheel has arrived! It's pretty cool just seeing how small this thing really is. The flyhweel bolts are on order with Fastenal and will be here by Friday but I'll be out of town till Monday. Once I get the flywheel/flexplate stack attached to the engine I'll post up some pictrues.

I also ordered the tilton clutch disc pack from Pegasus Auto Racing up in Wisconsin. They had to special order the disc pack from Tilton and that will be about a 3 week lead time. I actually called and spoke to a Tilton sales rep and they have never made a 5.5 disc with the fiero hub so this will be a first.

I have made some additional progress on the release bearing as well. I have decided that it will probably be better to use a standard Tilton Release Bearing instead of trying to adapat the F23 piston. This is three fold. 1. The F23 piston area is a tad small so using the tilton unit will give me a more usable clutch pedal effort. 2. The tilton units are well built and have have better dust sealing. 3. Cost, a stock F23 TO bearing assembly is about $100, plus the cost of the custom adapter $200+ and we're into the $300 teritory of the tilton unit.

Bottom line, I DO NOT advise taking on this project or using this clutch if you don't have D E E P pockets. I estimate I will have close to $1500 into this clutch when it's all said and done. However, the thought of the little LZ4 revving like a sport bike is just too tempting!!

More updates soon.
The Dark Side of Will
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The dual disk 7.25" looked like it wouldn't be too much more than a Spec Stage 3+ with aluminum flywheel, with MUCH better results. Definitely good for the money, just VERY good and a lot of money. ;-)
Tilton quoted me $500 for the pressure plate + $250 for the disks and about $30 for the mechanical TOB. I'd planned to machine an adapter for the 282 throw out mechanism to hold the Tilton TOB, as well as a button flywheel to which I would weld the outer portion of an auto trans flex plate. I was figuring I could keep the whole thing to about $1000, but that obviously didn't include a $350 HTOB, and the prices may have gone up since I last checked.
Datsun1973
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by Datsun1973 »

Well I finally got the new flywheel bolts from Fastenal today. The flywheel is here and the new HTOB is on order from Tilton. The discs should also be here later this week. I promised pictures once I got the flywheel and clutch attached to the engine so here they are.
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Datsun1973
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by Datsun1973 »

And another with the clutch housing sitting there.

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Shaun41178(2)
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

damn thats badass .
FieroPhrek working on that ls4 swap for 18 years and counting now. 18 years!!!!! LOL

530 whp is greater than 312
Datsun1973
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by Datsun1973 »

Discs and HTOB came in late last week. Here are some more teaser pictures. The custom base for the F23 is being machined at a local shop from 6061-T651. I now need to place another $1K order from Summit/Jegs etc for all the cooling, fuel system plumbing and the rest of the clutch lines. I am hoping to have the engine/trans installed in the car late next month so I can get started on the wiring!
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Datsun1973
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by Datsun1973 »

Since this whole setup isn't going in your average Fiero I thought I'd post a picture of what my wife calls "The White Beast."
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It started out life as a basic Kelmark GT on a VW pan. I have since built a tube frame chassis using an 88' Fiero rear cradle, front cross member, rack, column, etc. Modified the front suspension with custom control arms to accept C4 uprights, wilwood NASCAR 6-Piston calipers and 13" rotors, the rear suspension uses custom heim joined links and the strut was replaced with belcrank actuated QA1 60 series shocks and a custom upper control link arrangement. Rear brakes are from the same Sprint Cut NASCAR car only 4-piston with 12" rotors. The stock fiero hubs are used in the rear with a 1.25" adapter to convert to the 5x4.75 bolt pattern mounted under the two piece wilwood rotor.

If anyone wants details on the suspension or how to adapt the corvette uprights and rear adapter setup please shoot me a PM or I can also post a thread.
The Dark Side of Will
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Datsun1973 wrote:And another with the clutch housing sitting there.
IMG_2383.jpg
A 5.5" going inside an F23... Not the same clearance problems as putting a 7.25" inside a 282. I thought the button looked a bit thick, then went back and re-read your whole setup.

I think I'm going to go ahead and put together a 3.94 282, since I already have all the parts. @$$uming it hasn't worn out the hub springs in a couple thousand miles of driving, I'll keep the SPEC stage 3 that's in the car now. I'll go to a Tilton when I go to an F23.

What size MC will you be using? What do you expect your pedal effort to be? What do the hydraulic calculations look like?
Datsun1973
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by Datsun1973 »

More progress today. Got the HTOB adapter plate from the machine shop, some M6 Flat Head Socket Screws, and ordered the 25mm shaft seal and face o-ring from Motion Industries. Here are some pictures with the HTOB plate and HTOB in place. I still need to drill and tap for the 1/4-20 shoulder screw that holds the bearing down.
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Datsun1973
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Re: Tilton Clutch

Post by Datsun1973 »

Will, what clearance issues were you having with the 7.25" setup? With this all installed the HTOB to clutch clearance is .208 or right in the middle of the window of .170 to .230 that tilton recomends. Or are you speaking of radial clearance to some part of the 282 interfering with the larger 7.25" diameter? I know the clutch housing bolts come dang close (>.100") to the transmission bellhousing internal guts.

Titlon recomends using a 5/8" Master with their HTOB's and I have one of their 5.5:1 floor mounted pedal assemblies. All this comes out to a 34lb pedal load and 4" pedal travel. This is based on a release load of 750lbs and a release travel of .180" and free play of .200. However since the tilton HTOB's don't use return springs the .200 free play can be negated.
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