Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

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Series8217
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Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

Post by Series8217 »

I've run 7 track days with my DOHC-powered '88 Fiero so far. No reliability problems at all except some high temperatures (~220 or 230*F on the gauge with 95*F+ ambient), and an exploding power steering pulley which was purely my fault (it was cracked from impact damage and I didn't replace it despite it being on my priority list).

This weekend I ran the car for over 3 hours at Buttonwillow with SpeedTrial USA. We were given 6 sessions per day, 20 minutes duration each, except the last Saturday session was 30 minutes and the last Sunday session was 40 minutes. I skipped the final sessions so I could save tires for next month. Plus it's kinda tiring to drive on the track that much!

Fastest lap for the weekend was a 2:16 yesterday. We're running the #13 CW configuration. Air temp was ~95*F. Not sure about the track surface, but even after a 55 mph parade lap the tires were almost too hot to touch. Probably somewhere between 120*F and 130*F if I had to guess. On my fastest lap, it was the first lap of the session. After that, times dropped by a few seconds each lap even without traffic.

I installed Rodney's lowering balljoints in an attempt to get some more camber up front. It didn't help with static camber but must have helped with dynamic, because I'm not wearing on the outer edge of my fronts anymore. The wear is mostly in the middle, and I could even it out with lower tire pressures. The only reason I didn't is because I also lowered the rear a bit (about 1/4") so the back doesn't sit so high compared to the front... but now I don't have enough camber gain and the roll center is a bit lower. Tire wear has increased on the outer edge of the rears versus how it was at previous track days.

Still working on spec'ing out some shocks and springs, per my other thread: http://realfierotech.com/phpBB/viewtopi ... =7&t=17671

Some photos from this weekend attached.

Had one big off, hence the dirt in the last two. Here's a video from that incident too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqBfEbYIXm8
I'm still processing videos; I think I have one of my best lap... just need to figure out which one it was.
Ready to hit the track!
Ready to hit the track!
IMG_2671e.jpg (81.71 KiB) Viewed 13881 times
Dirt don't slow you down...
Dirt don't slow you down...
IMG_2674e_small.jpg (176.36 KiB) Viewed 13881 times
Dirt don't slow you down... but it does get in your eyes.
Dirt don't slow you down... but it does get in your eyes.
IMG_2673e_small.jpg (74.47 KiB) Viewed 13881 times
Last edited by Series8217 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

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Series8217 wrote: I installed Rodney's lowering balljoints in an attempt to get some more camber up front. It didn't help with static camber but must have helped with dynamic, because I'm not wearing on the outer edge of my fronts anymore. The wear is mostly in the middle, and I could even it out with lower tire pressures. The only reason I didn't is because I also lowered the rear a bit (about 1/4") so the back doesn't sit so high compared to the front... but now I don't have enough camber gain and the roll center is a bit lower. Tire wear has increased on the outer edge of the rears versus how it was at previous track days.
JEALOUS. I *REALLY* want to get The Mule to some track days, but I'm still fighting oil temps and need some suspension work.

Interesting to note that about the ball joints... I guess they put your suspension in a portion of the curve where there's more camber gain?

Don't be afraid to raise the rear back up... when pioneering the '88 roll center mods, George Ryan's son actually had his AutoX car higher than stock. Also, raising the rear could work with your front end aero mods to enhance the car's overall aero balance.
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Re: Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

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The Dark Side of Will wrote:JEALOUS. I *REALLY* want to get The Mule to some track days, but I'm still fighting oil temps and need some suspension work.
Get started doing track days with whatever car you have available. It doesn't have to be fast or crazy. I have done track days in my Subaru Outback on all seasons. You'll still be passing n00bs in the novice group. If you want to run the One Lap next year you will need your NASA time trial license (get signed off for HPDE4/TT) or a competition license. It will take a few months of track days to get to that point.
Don't be afraid to raise the rear back up... when pioneering the '88 roll center mods, George Ryan's son actually had his AutoX car higher than stock. Also, raising the rear could work with your front end aero mods to enhance the car's overall aero balance.
Yeah, I'll probably raise it back up before the next event. I lowered it for looks (to match the front) and decided to see how it handled. I'm either going to raise it back up, or move the strut tops inward to get some more camber. I'm also going to upgrade to 475 lb/in springs (running 350 lb/in now) once I get the 725 lb/in springs up front.
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Re: Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Series8217 wrote: Get started doing track days with whatever car you have available. It doesn't have to be fast or crazy. I have done track days in my Subaru Outback on all seasons. You'll still be passing n00bs in the novice group. If you want to run the One Lap next year you will need your NASA time trial license (get signed off for HPDE4/TT) or a competition license. It will take a few months of track days to get to that point.
I know. Right now my UMHW bushings are worn out and need replacement, and I'm not sure about my oil temps.

Of course I could just take my mostly stock '88 on crap tires...

Gotta get a job first.
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Re: Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

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The Dark Side of Will wrote: Of course I could just take my mostly stock '88 on crap tires...
I suggest doing that. It will be cheaper to run, and it will keep your speeds down while you learn the line and proper track etiquette. If you have too much car you're going to spend more time trying to keep it under control rather than improving your driving. Have you considered tracking the E30 when you get it back on the road? That could be fun. They also have more reliable oiling than the 2.8... they seem to last through LeMons races just fine.

When I got signed off to drive without an instructor, I was driving my stock Subaru Outback at Buttonwillow. It's actually pretty fun to drive slow cars at the limit. Anything works as long as the motor holds up. http://www.steventsnyder.com/web-media/ ... llow-3.jpg
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Re: Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Series8217 wrote:
The Dark Side of Will wrote: Of course I could just take my mostly stock '88 on crap tires...
I suggest doing that. It will be cheaper to run, and it will keep your speeds down while you learn the line and proper track etiquette. If you have too much car you're going to spend more time trying to keep it under control rather than improve your driving. Have you considered tracking the E30 when you get it back on the road? That could be fun. They also have more reliable oiling than the 2.8... they seem to last through LeMons races just fine.

When I got signed off to drive without an instructor, I was driving my stock Subaru Outback at Buttonwillow. It's actually pretty fun to drive slow cars at the limit. Anything works as long as the motor holds up. http://www.steventsnyder.com/web-media/ ... llow-3.jpg
I'm very familiar with that phenomenon. When the Navy flies me to Atlanta for drill weekends, I whip the P!$$ out of my 110 HP rentals cars and have a blast.

The Mule is actually a little frustrating to drive around here... the car's limits and capabilities are so high and NoVA roads so crowded that I can never really open it up for more than a few seconds at a time.

Bad Idea would be another good alternative for a track day. I intend to have all of them (Except maybe the Eagle) on track eventually. If I can find a RallyX nearby, I'll probably take the Eagle to that.
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Re: Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

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Series8217 wrote: If you want to run the One Lap next year you will need your NASA time trial license (get signed off for HPDE4/TT) or a competition license.
I was wrong about this. Brock Yates Jr posted the following on the GRM forum:
We don't require a racing license, just two one-day driving schools, on track with an instructor and classroom, much like a NASA HPDE or what most track days offer.
While autocross and TSD experience is helpful, they don't count toward the minimum requirements. Since most of our competitions are on racetracks, we need to see the high-speed experience. Frankly, I want to know that if you get two wheels off the track, you're smart enough to drive off into the grass in control rather than try and save the car.
If you've done track days with an instructor you should be good to join us though from a safety and performance aspect, more is always better.
So one weekend of NASA HPDE or equivalent would be enough.
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Re: Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

Post by crzyone »

Very cool man, nice to see guys going out and having fun with their cars. The fiero is really fun to track. If I had started with an 88 I would probably still have a fiero.
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Re: Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

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Drove the Roval at Auto Club Speedway last weekend. I ran 6 out of 8 sessions. I bumped things up a notch in session 6 (Sunday around noon) and engine temps were up to 240 to 260*F with lifter tap turning into a cacaphony at high RPM due to oil temps probably going through the roof. When I pulled back in I heard what sounded like a loose/clunking flywheel. The noise only went away with the clutch completely disengaged, so it wasn't the TOB. Either the input shaft, clutch, or flywheel (full disengagement can provide enough clamping force to quiet the flywheel). I shut it down and stopped for the weekend. I drove the car to work yesterday and the noise hasn't come back or gotten worse, so I think it may have just been the input shaft making more noise than usual because things got so hot.

The wing worked GREAT. Even low speed (50 mph) seems to be affected. Never spun all weekend. Only got the rear end loose once on one turn where I hit a huge bump in the track while transitioning.

Still need front spring though. I'm getting on the bump stops while braking... Also need more rear camber. Front tire wear is very even, but the rear isn't using the inside 2 inches.

Some photos from CaliPhotography:

A cool full-size photo for your backgrounds: http://www.steventsnyder.co...urn-13-full-size.jpg

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Series8217 wrote:Motegi MR116 17x7-48mm and 18x9-45mm with 215/45/17 and 275/35/18 Hankook RS3:
Car's wearing this setup, right?
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Re: Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

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The Dark Side of Will wrote:
Series8217 wrote:Motegi MR116 17x7-48mm and 18x9-45mm with 215/45/17 and 275/35/18 Hankook RS3:
Car's wearing this setup, right?
Yep.

Fronts were replaced recently (just two track days on them). Rears have been on since I got the new setup earlier this year (last year?). They are almost worn out and probably heat cycled out too...
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Re: Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

good pics.
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Re: Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

Post by AkursedX »

Steven, what kind of track improvement do you think your aero mods have done? Would you be able to quantify it somehow? Maybe at a track day you could run one session with the splitter and wing on and one without and compare the difference. I'm really curious to the difference as I'm considering some serious aero changes to my RX8.
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Re: Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

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AkursedX wrote:Steven, what kind of track improvement do you think your aero mods have done? Would you be able to quantify it somehow? Maybe at a track day you could run one session with the splitter and wing on and one without and compare the difference. I'm really curious to the difference as I'm considering some serious aero changes to my RX8.
I could run one session without, but the car is VERY oversteery (dangerously so) without the rear wing. At every track day I have done up until the first one with the wing, the car felt very unstable in the rear at speed, and I spun out at least once every day. This was the first time that I didn't spin out, and that the car never felt unstable in the rear. The only thing I changed since the last track weekend (before this one) was the wing, and a harness bar. I'm sure the harness bar didn't affect handling ;-).

One way I'd be willing to quantify it is by datalogging ride height at speed to see how much downforce is being generated by the front splitter. I could do the rear wing as well but I think the simulation data is going to be in the ballpark anyway. I guess that's something I should post in my aero thread.

The splitter is a little safer to quantify since removing it just leads to high-speed understeer. If I don't come up with a datalogging solution before I start running consistent lap times at the limit, I can take it off for a session to see how the times change.
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Re: Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

Post by AkursedX »

Well if it feels that much different right from the driver's seat, I would imagine that you are putting a fair bit of downforce on the rear. I guess it's time to pick up another trunk to add a wing to.
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Re: Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

Post by crzyone »

I really dig how you mounted your rear wing. Very functional and strong. Cool thread man.
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Re: Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

Post by Series8217 »

Thanks!
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Re: Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

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Beat my fastest lap by 4 seconds yesterday. I'm now down to a 2:12. Still off-pace but the new suspension is fucking awesome. The car feels incredible now. I do still need more camber all around, as tire wear is far from ideal, but I have much more confidence in the car now, and I can drive it closer to the limit.

My radiator fan stopped working again -- this time it seems like some part of the wiring besides the relay failed. I noticed some arcing on the fuse contacts. I think I need a big flyback protection diode on this thing, or just fully soldered connections. Luckily the air temp never got hotter than 75 or so, and I had enough speed to keep the motor relatively cool. Coolant temps were 220 to 240*F.

I have some video; I'll get it up on youtube when I get a chance.

Only problem is I had to cut my day short after running through a brand new set of brake pads in only a few sessions. Apparently the pad compound I'm using doesn't work well at the track -- when it overheats it just crumbles. More details in my other thread in Tech.
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Re: Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

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If I were you I'd really worry about engine temps. Although you've had good luck so far, the 3.4 DOHC isn't known for its bulletproof performance, especially at the race track. You've done mods to help this (Polishing the casting flash on oil drainback), but if I were you I think I'd invest in an oil temp gauge and then workout a solution, because if your water is that hot surely your oil is quite a bit warmer. I know you've got the water/oil cooler, but that's probably contributing to your higher water temps, especially when you consider the coolant that goes through the oil cooler goes right back into the motor. It spends very little time in the hoses where it can cool, and it bypasses the radiator completely. I think if I were you I'd invest in a aluminum multi-core radiator if you haven't already, and you may want to consider removing the water/oil cooler, or adding an external oil cooler in addition. I know you're smarter than I am, especially at this kind of stuff, but I'm kind of surprised you don't seem too worried about this. I would be, especially considering you're encountering lifter noise already, and with stock oil capacity you don't have that extra cushioning.

I ran my Grand Cherokee SRT8 WOT up Monarch Pass a few summers ago. I was pretty much wide open for about 10 miles straight, but never got above 120 because of the altitude and I was climbing. Ambient temperatures were probably around 60*, so not bad at all. Anyways you can see my coolant was barely above average, it normally sits at 1/4 the gauge. However oil was 40* higher than normal. Normal is 220, and even on hot days or top speed runs I've never seen it above 230 before this. And while 258 may not be anything to worry about, it was still higher than I liked, especially considering I could realistically think of harsher conditions to put it through. This motor is sans an oil cooler of any sort.

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Re: Track Days in the DOHC Fiero

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Here's a video of one my fastest runs from yesterday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36ThfyBMJr8
My brakes were gone after that lap and I had to park the car. The pads (Porterfield R4-S) were overheating and disintegrating. I'm going to try Porterfield R4 pads next. Also getting some better rotors (with no holes or slots) so they hopefully don't crack anymore.

Car was running pretty well (especially with my new springs and front shocks) but my brakes weren't working all that well all weekend since they were getting too hot for the R4-S compound. I had a spare set but they were the same compound, and I went through the brand new pads in just a few sessions. So unfortunately I only got about 10 laps in on Sunday before my brakes were gone.
Aaron wrote:If I were you I'd really worry about engine temps. Although you've had good luck so far, the 3.4 DOHC isn't known for its bulletproof performance, especially at the race track. You've done mods to help this (Polishing the casting flash on oil drainback), but if I were you I think I'd invest in an oil temp gauge and then workout a solution, because if your water is that hot surely your oil is quite a bit warmer. I know you've got the water/oil cooler, but that's probably contributing to your higher water temps, especially when you consider the coolant that goes through the oil cooler goes right back into the motor. It spends very little time in the hoses where it can cool, and it bypasses the radiator completely. I think if I were you I'd invest in a aluminum multi-core radiator if you haven't already, and you may want to consider removing the water/oil cooler, or adding an external oil cooler in addition. I know you're smarter than I am, especially at this kind of stuff, but I'm kind of surprised you don't seem too worried about this. I would be, especially considering you're encountering lifter noise already, and with stock oil capacity you don't have that extra cushioning.

I ran my Grand Cherokee SRT8 WOT up Monarch Pass a few summers ago. I was pretty much wide open for about 10 miles straight, but never got above 120 because of the altitude and I was climbing. Ambient temperatures were probably around 60*, so not bad at all. Anyways you can see my coolant was barely above average, it normally sits at 1/4 the gauge. However oil was 40* higher than normal. Normal is 220, and even on hot days or top speed runs I've never seen it above 230 before this. And while 258 may not be anything to worry about, it was still higher than I liked, especially considering I could realistically think of harsher conditions to put it through. This motor is sans an oil cooler of any sort.
I'm not one to worry much about anything unless it'll kill me when it breaks. Otherwise, if something breaks, I'll fix it or replace it. That goes for the motor too. I'd rather have fun driving the car than worry about it. Brakes and suspension on the other hand.... I'll fix those or park the car.

I have an oil temp gauge and sender, and a Griffin 2-core race radiator waiting to go in. Suspension was more important so I wouldn't crash the car or continue to scrape up my bodywork. So I did that first in the limited time I had to prepare for this event. Unfortunately I had to go to Asia for a week for work, and it really cut into my prep time.

That's some hot oil on your Cherokee, but not horrible for a limited period of time. Mine is probably getting up in the 275*F to 300*F range if I had to guess. I change the oil often. Lifter taps comes in after a few laps and turns into a cacophony until I back off. Eh, whatever. I'm not going to skip a track day because the motor is getting hot. If it blows up I'll throw in an Ecotec Turbo or a 3.6.

The air temps have gone down quite a bit with summer over, so my coolant temps were a good 20 or 30 degrees lower than they were at the previous track days this year.

Next event will be after New Year's, so I should have time to install the Griffin rad, oil temp sending unit bung, oil temp gauge, and maybe run some small event or something else to simulate track use so I can see what my oil temps are like.
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