1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

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Re: 1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

Post by ericjon262 » Sun May 01, 2016 2:47 am

I still watch this thread,how much longer you think it will be before this is back roadworthy?
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Re: 1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sun May 01, 2016 6:22 am

ericjon262 wrote:I still watch this thread,how much longer you think it will be before this is back roadworthy?
I'd like to get it in the car by the end of the summer. Not sure if it'll run, as I haven't decided on engine management. I'm leaning toward a megasquirt at this point, due to the decidedly *UN*wired nature of the car.

No reason I can't get the diff buttoned up next weekend, except that I'm doing some fairly major work to the garage then. My dad's coming up to help... maybe I'll have him bring the diff up and we'll finish it here.

I want to check the TH425 diff to fitment, just to see how well it might work and get some ideas for when/if I blow up the D30. I also need to finish assembling the T-case, but that shouldn't be hard.

Once the D30 is buttoned up and the TH425 fit check is done, then I can bolt up the diff, flywheel, clutch, transmission and T-case.

After that it's on to the rear axle, which get a sand blast, paint and disk brake installation.

Then the whole ensemble goes into a body.

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Re: 1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

Post by Emc209i » Fri May 06, 2016 9:36 am

And then it's driveable?

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Re: 1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sat May 07, 2016 7:44 am

The engine mounts will bolt right up, but I'll have to modify the transmission crossmember... not sure what I'll need to do for a rear driveshaft, but I'm not the first to use this transmission. I think the stock driveshaft has enough plunge to take up for the difference in transfer case location.

I'll have to swap a 258 waterpump onto it because the Jeep fan mounts to the serpentine idler, while the Eagle fan mounts to the waterpump pulley. The Jeep and Eagle waterpump pulleys have different bolt circles, so I need to use the Eagle one so the fan hub bolts up.

Other than that, it's a pretty darn simple swap. I'll get it into a body first, then do the wiring. I have Jeep harness to work from. As mentioned, I'll probably go for a MegaSquirt and download someone's pre-completed tune.

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Re: 1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sat May 07, 2016 5:32 pm

The Dark Side of Will wrote: No reason I can't get the diff buttoned up next weekend
So... that was a really dumb thing to say. Of course there's going to be a reason.

The bearing on the left is the one that CQ had... the bearing on the right is the one that came out of the unit:

Image

Oooops. The AMC part number cross-references to a B168 bearing, which is what I had CQ order. The actual bearing is a BH208. I was a dumbass and let CQ order the one that crossed from the AMC part number rather than going by the part mark itself... I allowed myself to be victimized by a catalog error. CQ is getting the correct bearing in, but I won't be able to work on it until the 21st.

That bearing is the first part that has to be installed in order to assemble the disconnect mechanism and the right output flange... ok, I'm DIW for the right side.
Cleaned up the left side flange and discovered that it's heavily pitted on the seal journal. Oops sommore. CQ has a 1.375 speedy sleeve on the way, but I still won't be able to work on it until the 21st. At least I can repaint it before then.

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Yeah, not being a great project manager with this assembly.

My customer's Getrag needs diff carrier bearings, but CQ only has National, not Timken... that's not going anywhere either.

So I took the opportunity to play...

This is the diff from my dad's TH425 put up where it would go on my 4.0 (along with a piece of aluminum bar for some reference points). The upper left bolt on the TH425 diff should be 6" back and 4" down from the forward bolt attaching the aluminum to the block... at least as a starting point.

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Here's the side of the diff at its point of closest approach to the oil pan:

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Some extra views:

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The axle relative to the oil pan:

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The right side axle bracket:

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Here's the TH425 unit next to the Dana 30. The D30 is a 7.375 or so ring gear. I haven't seen a number of the TH425 unit, but given that it's used with Caddy 472's and 500's in 4000+# luxobarges and Olds 455's in 11,000# motor homes, it is *AT LEAST* a 10 inch ring gear. This makes it bigger than the 8.5" Dana 44 I have for the rear and definitely in the Dana 60/Ford Sterling/GM 14 bolt class of axles.

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The TH425 diff is actually *NARROWER* across the output flanges than the stock Dana 30:

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Output flange size difference:

Image

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The input to the TH425 diff is 1.415" or so and 33 splines... *NOT* 32 as I conjectured.



*Image links may be broken until Google Photos pulls its collective head out of its ass.

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Re: 1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sun May 08, 2016 2:55 am

Interesting info on axle splines: http://www.markwilliams.com/schmaxles.aspx
According to the old SAE handbook, all modern axles are known as 24-pitch. If the shaft had a 1-inch circular pitch diameter (the mid-point between the major and minor diameters), it would exhibit exactly 24 splines (or teeth). The distance between the centerline of adjacent splines remains constant, so as the diameter of the shaft increases, so does spline count. For examle, a 35-spline axle has a major diameter of 1,500 inches; a 40-spline axle is 1.708 inches in diameter.

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Re: 1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Mon May 16, 2016 6:37 am


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Re: 1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sat May 21, 2016 6:51 am

Feh... another week of no progress.
My bearing and speedy sleeve sat around the CQ for a while. The CarQuest proprietor *sent the bearing back* to minimize inventory, even though it was paid for. Sigh. She missed the sleeve, so I have that. A 1.375" speedy sleeve is 27 freaking dollars... Holy cow, they're proud of that thing.


I cleaned up and painted the output flanges, at least. I still need to blast and paint the right flange bearing retainer.

At least the ARP bolts arrived; I installed those without incident. I had to work them in and out a few times to clean the threads, as they're ~0.250 longer than stock.

Output flanges:
Image

I also discovered this:
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This is the B168 bearing for 1" diameter shaft and 1.250" diameter bore which we initially ordered but found was wrong for the intermediate shaft to outer housing. it *was* correct in the parts catalog... The diagram just wasn't clear about which bearing was which.

ARP's:
Image

ARP's installed and pulled to 60 ftlbs:
Image

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Re: 1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sat May 28, 2016 7:13 am

Of course I was an idiot and left the left output flange and the right bearing retainer at my house after I installed the speedy sleeve to the output flange and painted the bearing retainer.

This is the collection of hardware for the intermediate shaft and right output flange:

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Here's the open IMS bearing bore viewed through the disconnect box:

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Bearing installed:

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Shaft, with its internal bearing, and shift collar installed:

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The collar has to slide in through the disco box opening, then the shaft drops down through it. It's awkward, but that's the way they did it.

Now I'm looking for the C-clips... however, they're not typical C-clips. They're more like super heavy duty E-clips... IIRC, they were somewhat spring loaded, which is what kept them in place. I was able to remove them without removing the diff cross-pin, so they weren't what is typically thought of as C-clips.

The C-clip part number is 813 0763, but googling that just turns up this topic!

I found this thread that references a spring clip used on the Dana 30 disco solid front ends for the intermediate shaft going into the diff... this means I can likely find the Chryco part number and actually get a pair.
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=927188

Also found this thread showing a later model Jeep D30 disconnect solid front end in which he converted the actuation mechanism from vacuum to cable. The Jeep part at that time apparently had both a vacuum actuator AND a switch, which would give me the ability to control it electronically, or at least light an indicator light when the front axle is locked.
http://www.wranglerforum.com/f218/front ... 70583.html

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Re: 1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sat May 28, 2016 12:42 pm

I found a bunch of places with kits that show the damned part, but no one lists it separately. I got a hold of 4wd.com and the guy knew the part, but also knew they didn't sell it separately.

http://www.shopjeepparts.com/ring-pinio ... p8n0r1dbf2
http://www.shopjeepparts.com/rebuild-be ... -6178.html
http://www.4wd.com/Jeep-Drivetrain-Jeep ... RO83500191
http://www.4wd.com/Jeep-Drivetrain-Jeep ... AI16512.05
http://www.4wd.com/Jeep-Drivetrain-Jeep ... AI16507.03

Apparently enough people break the disco cover that it's readily available by itself, and the price isn't bad:
http://www.4wheelparts.com/Drivetrain-D ... D%2fS42208

I can just buy that and the appropriate ancillary parts and set up the indicator switch right away.

And a cast iron disco shift fork:
http://www.4wheelparts.com/Drivetrain-D ... =ALY450100

With being stuck on the diff again, my dad and I went for the transfer case. I found a manual for the NP229 online here:
http://oljeep.com/np229/NP229_manual.pdf

and it was useful in making sure that we had things in order before bolting on the rear case half.
The thing the manual specifies that we need to do is shim the end play of the rear output, which is accomplished by shims under the tailshaft housing.

Here's the reason I needed to take the T-case apart:

Image

This photo shows two things:
1. That we bored the cored hole for the low range shift rail
2. All 12 of the tail housing attaching bolt locations are incorporated into the casting

However, only 6 of the 12 are tapped in any given unit. The Wagoneer had the wrong six tapped. If I were to use the Wagoneer rear case half in the Eagle, the resulting clocking of the tailhousing would mean that the VSS/Speedo cable would hit the body or would hang down below the floor pan.
So I need to use the Eagle case half and bore it for the low range shift rail OR use the Wagoneer case half and drill/tap the holes for the Eagle orientation of the tail shaft housing. Since my dad and I can use the Bridgeports where he works, we used the Eagle case half because it only involved one hole.

And here's the unit assembled except for the tailshaft housing bolts and the rear output yoke:

Image

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Re: 1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:51 pm

CarQuest couldn't cross the AMC part number and didn't have a listing for the snap ring.
I swung by a dealer tonight and got the succession of PN's this part has had: AMC 8130763 became Chryco J8130763 which became 4137739 which became 5252775. Of course they don't have any. The counter man was able to give me contact info for a couple different dealerships within a few hundred miles which showed 1 or two in inventory. Before I do that, I tap the endless knowledge of the internet.

Googling these numbers turns up this page:

http://www.moparpartsgiant.com/parts-li ... -axle.html

Where the clip appears to be callout #17

Image


While this site doesn't have a photo of the specific part, the combo of the callout in the exploded diagram and the two part numbers the dealership gave me being listed makes me confident enough to put the $5 at risk and order a couple.

A good many of the search results also mention '98 Dodge Dakotas and similar. This appears to be a commonly used, but not commonly replaced, part.

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Re: 1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:08 pm

The clips arrived:

Image

The minor diameter of the groove is 0.868, probably a nominal 0.875 and its width is 0.086. The clips are 0.077 thick.
McMaster PN 98420A157 appears to be *EXACTLY* the part that Dana/Spicer used. They even give the nomenclature for that style of E-ring as "poodle rings". McMaster sells a 10 pack for $8.10, which sure is better pricing than the Jeep aftermarket has.
McMaster link: http://www.mcmaster.com/#98420a157/=12t68c9

Image


This is the LEFT output flange bearing.
Image

This is the right output flange installed:
Image

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Re: 1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:57 am

Since I'm close to wrapping up the front diff, I pulled the D44 out of the shed and took it over to a local shop where my dad's known the proprietor for a couple of decades. (Different shop than the one from which he is semi-retired)

He let us use a great big blasting cabinet to clean the axle up.

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And then I dumped most of a can of gloss black epoxy spray paint from McMaster-Carr on it:

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Since it's 90+ degrees out in VA today, it cured in a couple of hours.
Next up: disk brakes

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Re: 1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:04 pm

Separated the caliper brackets from the dust shields; somehow forgot to snap a "blasted" pic. I'll grab a "painted" pic in a couple of weeks after I get back from London. you can see the modded bolt patterns in both.


Image

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Post by The Dark Side of Will » Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:14 am

LOL at my luck. This thing just keeps fighting me.

First, with the speedy sleeve the left output flange wouldn't go in all the way, or at least not far enough to install the clip. Originally it went in far enough to contact the cross-pin. I put some feeler gauges in between and came up with 0.054. A machinist my dad knows (a different one this time) *carefully* cut the end of the speedy sleeve back by 0.060". The sleeve is only 0.010" thick, so trying to cut it might have just spun the sleeve on the flange, which would be a bad day and a ruined $27 sleeve.

Here's the result. I'm surprised that the extent of the sleeve is visible:

Image

I tried to install the seal and then drop the flange in, pop in the clip and be done except for the covers, but that was not to be.
The seal I have is the wrong one. After talking with the CarQuest proprietor, we figured out all the right part numbers (AMC & Timken) per the parts diagram and the orignal part mark, but she couldn't get either of them. Besides, none of the dimensions for those parts were right. The seal required is for a 1.375" shaft and 2.440 bore. Neither of the AMC part numbers crossed to a seal with those specs.

I found the Timken seal catalog here: http://www.timken.com/en-us/products/do ... -guide.pdf
And was able to look up the diametral specs and find Timken PN 470950, which is the same style #407 as the other two, but made for the right dimensions. One of those will be in tomorrow. I have no idea why the AMC PN's and the original part mark didn't cross to something I can use.

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Re: 1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:18 am

Correct PN 470950 seal installed:

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Left output flange installed:
Image

Clips installed:
Image

This is how the right output flange bearing retainer bolts need to be torqued (144 inlbs on a 1/4" socket cap!):

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And I disassembled and cleaned the disco housing cover and servo. The servo diaphragm shell is bent and the shaft shaft scrapes like it has a bunch of rust and trash in it. It held vacuum when we started playing with it, but now doesn't, so now I'm in the hunt for a new actuator.
I haven't done a lot of research yet, but I don't know if the AMC Eagle actuator is the same as the one used on Jeeps. It wasn't much longer after Chrysler bought AMC that Jeeps with disconnects started using an electric switch to verify the position of the disconnect. The AMC system is entirely vacuum operated. The 2WD/AWD switch inside the vehicle is simply a valve that applies vacuum to the axle disconnect actuator. The stem of that actuator includes a valve that opens when the actuator reaches its end position. That second valve applies vacuum to the transfer case 2WD/AWD selector servo, so the axle engages before the T-case does. In the Jeeps, the vacuum servo operates (I *@$$ume* via a solenoid valve) and the position switch indicates when the servo has done its job, presumably enabling another solenoid to operate the T-case servo. I don't *think* Jeeps had axle disconnects before Chrysler took over, so I'm not expecting to find Jeep parts to replace the AMC part. I may need to convert to the later Jeep electro-vacuum system due to parts availability.

Image


Eagle's Den forum topics on the actuator:
http://forums.amceaglesden.com/index.php?topic=39361.0
http://forums.amceaglesden.com/index.php?topic=37665.0
http://forums.amceaglesden.com/index.php?topic=40936.0 (I replied in 2013?)

The Dorman 600-200 actuator is for Cherokees and such, but Dorman may have a replacement Eagle actuator for me to find: http://www.dormanproducts.com/itemdetai ... me=600-200

A thread showing bits of another 4.0 swap: http://theamcforum.com/forum/amc-eagle- ... 42455.html

Comparison between Jeep and Eagle disco covers: http://wiki.amcevolution.com/index.php/Front_Axle_Lock
If the covers aren't the same depth, then I may not be able to swap the Jeep parts right on like I was hoping... Do I want to extend the shift fork if the Jeep cover is deeper than the Eagle cover?

Image

Reasonably cool video of an Eagle SX/4 in action. He still has the independent front suspension for the first half of the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcXC5IUOdFk

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Re: 1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:11 pm

The spacer rings to go under the bearing retainers should be ready this weekend. That means I should be able to install the brakes to the axle this coming weekend.

I have the modded and painted caliper brackets, dust shields, old drum in hat parking brake hardware, used calipers, new rotors and pads, new hoses from the axle hard line to the calipers.

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Re: 1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:25 pm

The original Dana 44 non-clip hub end component stack:

From left to right: backing collar (not sure why it's not touching the bearing...), bearing, seal, bearing retainer.

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Modified stack: backing collar, new bearing, seal, spacer ring, bearing retainer

Image

And the whole shebang installed, including brake caliper brackets and dust shields:

Image

The left axle has pretty decent pitting on the seal surface and needs a speedy sleeve. If that hadn't been the case, I'd have put both together tonight.

Here's the later model Jeep axle disconnect actuator next to the Eagle actuator. The 4 port Eagle actuator includes a secondary valve which connects the two ports on the shank once the actuator hits the end of its travel and the axle is connected.
The Jeep actuator connects the port on the shank to the vacuum applied to the gold side of the diaphragm when connecting the axle... so it does exactly the same thing as the Eagle actuator, except with one fewer hose.
Both actuators break the connection to the "output" port on the shank when the actuator retracts to disconnect the axle, by putting vacuum to the plastic end cap over the diaphragm.

Image

And the Jeep actuator went together with the Eagle disco housing cover and shift fork just as well as stock.

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Here's the dern thing installed while I fill the pumpkin with 3 pints of 80W90 Amsoil synthetic gear oil

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Gear oil:

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WTF? The ratio tag doesn't fit anymore:

Image

I didn't grab a pic of it tonight, but the diff is all buttoned back up and hanging off the side of the engine like it should. I'm stoked that's finally in place.

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Re: 1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:06 am

Got back into the facility where the transmission is stored and grabbed a pic of the mating face of the TH425 diff:

Image

It has a 33 spline input. I could mount a custom fixed yoke to it if I could drill and tap the pinion for a retaining bolt. That may be difficult. Beyond the yoke, I'd just need a custom block off plate to keep it clean... but it's sealed, so even without that, only the pinion preload adjuster would get full of junk.

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Re: 1985 AMC Eagle wagon build

Post by The Dark Side of Will » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:12 am

The Dark Side of Will wrote: The input to the TH425 diff is 1.415" or so and 33 splines... *NOT* 32 as I conjectured.
The Dark Side of Will wrote:Interesting info on axle splines: http://www.markwilliams.com/schmaxles.aspx
According to the old SAE handbook, all modern axles are known as 24-pitch. If the shaft had a 1-inch circular pitch diameter (the mid-point between the major and minor diameters), it would exhibit exactly 24 splines (or teeth). The distance between the centerline of adjacent splines remains constant, so as the diameter of the shaft increases, so does spline count. For examle, a 35-spline axle has a major diameter of 1,500 inches; a 40-spline axle is 1.708 inches in diameter.
According to the above, the pitch diameter for 33 splines should be 1.375". 1.415 is reasonable OD for 1.375 pitch diameter... I guess I could have my dad verify. I guess I need to price a female yoke for 33 spline shaft. Probably ought to check the spline count on the T-case output.

Edit: After looking through Dana Expert and Summit Racing, I see that 33 spline yokes are between rare and non-existent. Interesting.

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