Will's Nightmare

[Fastback86]

http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read ... 381,page=1

MGB GT + Jag 5.3L V12 = SCCA Modified Class Autocross Hooligan

[The Dark Side of Will]

Jaguar's rust *EXACTLY* the same way. This is why I despise British cars. It's a good thing he's replacing 90% of the steel, or it would rust away to nothing on the way to his first event.



Otherwise and... interesting build. He's certainly a glutton for punishment. I hope he connects the steering shaft *before* he builds his headers.

[Atilla the Fun]

Just because he had the Jag engine is not valid grounds for trying to actually run it. Sell it for a lighter, cheaper, more powerful and better-MPG 5.3L LM4.
Then backing it with an automatic transmission?!?!?!!?!?!?
Plenty of cheap, strong manuals available. The S-10 2WD version of the NV3500 would be virtually free, most places.
This guy obviously has far-below-average intelligence.

[Indy]

Just because he had the Jag engine is not valid grounds for trying to actually run it. Sell it for a lighter, cheaper, more powerful and better-MPG 5.3L LM4.
Then backing it with an automatic transmission?!?!?!!?!?!?
Plenty of cheap, strong manuals available. The S-10 2WD version of the NV3500 would be virtually free, most places.
This guy obviously has far-below-average intelligence.

Sarcasm, yes, no?

If no..."I know I could make more hp with less weight with an LS1 but there's something really cool about V12's and a British engine in a British car has charm as well" From first post of the build thread. The "best" engine choice isn't always the RIGHT choice. There's easier ways for me to make >800HP than spending 15-20K on a 25 year old 4cyl. That doesn't make it any less awesome. Besides, the late-gen GM V8 swap has been done to death and back. It's the new SBC swap. Actually it was the new SBC swap about 2 years ago. Now it's the OLD new SBC swap. You would be stupid NOT to put a V12 into an MGB. It's just the right thing to do.

[CincinnatiFiero]

Atilla he mentions in the first post he does not want an LSx, I can't blame him, that motor is so fucking boring. This is a period correct, continent correct monster. It is INTERESTING as fuck, something an LSx wouldn't be. The LSx may have be touched by the hand of god, but sadly everyone and their mother has done an LSx swap. I guarantee when people see the massive tires, cage, custom bodywork, and loud exhaust, a lot of people will ask if it has a V8 swap, no one will expect a V12 swap.

[The Dark Side of Will]

If someone hears it, and still expects a V8 swap... they deserve the surprise.

[Emc209i]

that motor is so fucking boring.

The only thing cool about the Jag V12 is that it has 12 cylinders, and like you said, it's period and make correct. The LSx would romp it in every other category; mpg, power, torque, reliability, weight, ease of installation, and cost. That's why everyone and their dog has one, it's the "best" choice. The need to be different is an emotional and irrational thought process, and has nothing at all to do with being the best.

I'd be impressed if I saw that engine at the car shows, maybe even got a ride around the block. I wouldn't want to own it.

[The Dark Side of Will]

The Euro market Jag HE V12 was 330 HP, but didn't stand a chance of passing US emissions cert.

Walkinshaw punched the 12's out to 7.4 litres and 750 HP in racing use powering XJS's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9I7GWllPFY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5jtf83eKGs

I've never driven any British Leyland garbage (positive ground? WTF?), but the classic Jaguars shrink fantastically when you hustle them and have brakes to put Porsches to shame... better than my BMW's. However, they rust away to nothing very quickly and... they're... just... British. They're mechanical and electrical atrocities.

[Indy]

that motor is so fucking boring.

The only thing cool about the Jag V12 is that it has 12 cylinders, and like you said, it's period and make correct. The LSx would romp it in every other category; mpg, power, torque, reliability, weight, ease of installation, and cost. That's why everyone and their dog has one, it's the "best" choice. The need to be different is an emotional and irrational thought process, and has nothing at all to do with being the best.

I'd be impressed if I saw that engine at the car shows, maybe even got a ride around the block. I wouldn't want to own it.

People who do something only to be different are often disappointed. If you take the emotion and irrationality out of it, though, you've lost the war. You can win a battle here and there with the latest and greatest whatever. But there will always be something faster, more fuel efficient, and lighter than your whatever the day after you say "I'm finished". Good luck staying on top of that curve. You're better off building something that gives you goosebumps when you hear it, or something that you dream about at night. Tell those that tell you "it's not the best choice" to fuck right off and get back to their aimless wandering. If you're one of those that gets goosebumps from the latest and greatest whatever, that counts too. May God have mercy on your checkbook.

[Emc209i]

If you take the emotion and irrationality out of it, though, you've lost the war.

That's because sports cars are horrible investments which invoke emotional responses. That doesn't mean science can't be used to maximize input capital and time while minimizing lost satisfaction.

But there will always be something faster, more fuel efficient, and lighter than your whatever the day after you say "I'm finished".

That doesn't matter, in my book you pick what's the best choice available at the time and roll with it until it's time to move on (if desired). Saying there will always be something bigger and badder is no excuse to lay reason aside and make a strictly emotional decision - bad things result from this, there are plenty of reoccurring examples.

There are people who dream about new Z06's at night, I'm one of them. Saying an LSx is boring is simply perception. I think comparing it to a SBC is ridiculous, it evolved from that engine, but it is in no way the same dog. I find it to be an extremely exciting power plant, maybe it's not for everyone, but I don't think 400hp for under a grand is boring. The Lsx is by no means at the forefront of a technology curve, it's just a great bargain. The V12 is an antique - it's washed out to sea. It sounds awesome, but its old and unreliable. One has to sacrifice a lot to get the sound.

May God have mercy on your checkbook.

When's the last time you've tallied your expenses on the superduty? You're someone who gets goosebumps from the oldest and greatest. I'm sure you could have had 500hp a couple of times over by now with something else. You're going for unique, great. But don't expect reliability and expenses to follow suite.

I understand everyone has a different opinion on this. I've been thinking about stuff like this for the greater part of the past 4 years, and I've tried to rationalize a lot of the ways I used to think, I simply can't rationalize them anymore, and I know why. I'm just sharing some of those thought patterns, I'm not looking to debate - I don't have time for this shit.

[CincinnatiFiero]

I'm having trouble figuring out where you stand on this Paul. Sometimes you appreciate this kind of stuff, sometimes you're more of a realist.

I did concede an LSx is much better choice, and very few motors give you the bang for buck the LSx does, however I'm just tired of popping the hood on every modified car at every show ever.. and finding the same motor.

I think the motor makes the car, when they all have LSx's in them, we should have just all bought C5/C6s and not wasted time building cars. Its like the LS into RX7 swap, the only reason the world cared about the RX7 was the rotary. Put a 20B in it, and I'm okay with that swap. Once you put an LS in it, you've got a corvette with more sophisticated suspension, but its still 20 year old technology that isn't as good as the latest iteration of Z06/ZR1 tech.

This swap is very COOL. Is it the best, absolutely not, but I read this build thread, I wouldn't have read it if it was an LSx. Kudos to this man for not being so freaking mainstream..

I appreciate being different. I drive a diesel Mercedes, a gas honda civic gets better mpg and has half the service bills, I'll accept the cost of being different. I have a Fiero and a Mercedes SL, the SL sucks fuel and fiero isn't the best at anything. But noone has either, again, I'll pay the interesting tax. For the same money as the SL I did look at and drive an LS1 camaro, very fast for the money, but not for me. Building my girlfriend a '64 Vespa VBB, the modern Honda scooter was the same price and a lot smoother and quieter, but doesn't have the charm of the Vespa. In my artistic, up my own ass opinion, LSx swaps suck the soul and passion out of cars. Being the best on paper is really boring, cars are a horrible investment and a waste of money no matter how you look at it, so I'm not really interested in the cost side of the debate.

[Emc209i]

I don't have a lot of time to write this, so I'll try to be as clairvoyant as possible first go round.

I'm having trouble figuring out where you stand on this Paul. Sometimes you appreciate this kind of stuff, sometimes you're more of a realist.

That of course is because my ideals are changing so very rapidly. I grew up with a flare for exotics, but the older I get, it becomes increasingly difficult to sight those desires with the other things I want in life. It really becomes a science of weighing intrinsic value for me. Being around Johnny changed the way I thought, he essentially is the counter point of yours and my old philosophy. He changed the way I looked at the big picture. So what you read as of late is a modified version of my philosophy taking into account what I thought was important in his.

Being different was a wonderful thing at the time, there were lots of perks, but there were also costs. One of those costs was reliability, which diminished my availability to do other things which I would have liked to have been a part of.

I also need less material differentiation with the development of my psyche and education. I am an atheist and intellectual in the American deep south, there's not much more I need do to set myself in the opposite direction on the metaphorical highway of life, were I to remain here.

At this point in time, a vehicle with the most utility, reliability, and comfort would be more appealing to me than the worlds most sought after super car. How cool the car is doesn't stack the way it used to for me. I want to go to med school more than I want to own an exotic.

That should help you understand where I'm coming from, if you were truly interested.

I did concede an LSx...
I think the motor makes the car...
This swap is very COOL...
I appreciate being different...

I know..

[CincinnatiFiero]

Fair enough, I've decided I don't want to do anymore engine swaps, don't have the time to do it, or work out the kinks. So I'm not worried about which motor is best for a swap because you won't catch me doing a swap. If I want a fast car, I'll buy one. However I won't buy a Corvette, I'll buy a stock SL55.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Fair enough, I've decided I don't want to do anymore engine swaps, don't have the time to do it, or work out the kinks. So I'm not worried about which motor is best for a swap because you won't catch me doing a swap. If I want a fast car, I'll buy one. However I won't buy a Corvette, I'll buy a stock SL55.

I'm warming up to this idea. The whole point of "hot-rodding" is to do it better, cheaper. However, OE engineering has progressed to the point that the back yard engineer just *can't* do it better, only cheaper.

It's taken me longer to get there because I had more to unlearn. Some of my earliest memories are of working the chain hoist for my dad in the mid-'80's while he swapped Chevies into Jaguars.

Gordon Murray said that the automotive problem is fundamentally one of packaging. Looking at the linked thread above, I can see emergent packaging problems EVERYWHERE and just thinking about the car being built that way annoys me.
A Northstar Fiero is bad enough from the assembly/disassembly perspective.

[AkursedX]

At this point in time, a vehicle with the most utility, reliability, and comfort would be more appealing to me than the worlds most sought after super car. How cool the car is doesn't stack the way it used to for me. I want to go to med school more than I want to own an exotic.

That should help you understand where I'm coming from, if you were truly interested.

I understand that reasoning. My Sportwagen TDI is the best thing since sliced bread to me. Having a nice comfortable drive with the utility to haul my family wherever I go and get 40+ mpgs's doing it is exactly what I need at this point in my life. Yeah, it's not the most exciting thing, but the only thing that would make it better would be awd (Which I could get if I lived in Europe.). I only foresee coilovers and maybe some wheels in the future. Besides that, I am 100% content with it.

If I sell my Fiero, my next car is going to more than likely be an RX8 I've decided. I know the rotary isn't the most powerful thing out there, but a world class chassis and the ability to haul my son in a back seat if I need to is very appealing to me. With a 2nd car, I don't need to be super practical, but at the same time, I still want something that I can use for more than driving in a straight line. And no, I wouldn't swap an LSx into it.

Different strokes for different folks. Not everyone has the same wants/needs or preferences. I like seeing different projects of all kinds. Not everything needs an LSx swapped into it.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I'm thinking about going diesel. Diesel Mercs and Bimmahs don't do better than gas powered cars, though, because they're so big and heavy. The TDi VW's are very attractive, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to drive a single cam TDi when they make a twin cam...

[CincinnatiFiero]

Diesel BMWs and Diesel Mercs do better than Gas BMWs, and Gas Mercs. You have to compare them to each other. My friend loves to compare his silly accord to my Mercedes E-class because my diesel gets the same 30mpg he does. My door outweighs his whole car. But I get 10mpg better, or 50% than the gas version, the 300E.

The single cam TDi's were known to be quite a bit more reliable than the twin cams. I have a 1.6L non turbo jetta diesel.

Come do the dirty dark side will, but there is much reading to be done.

Its all in what you want to do, the new TDi jettas are a long way from the shitboxes that are MK2 and MK3 cars, those were tin cans with diesels engines in them, the Mk4, 5, and now 6 are at least nice places to be inside. But in terms of old stuff, my Jetta gets 38-41, my benz gets 25-31, and I drive the Benz little 99% of the time, just such a nicer car to be in.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Diesel BMWs and Diesel Mercs do better than Gas BMWs, and Gas Mercs. You have to compare them to each other. My friend loves to compare his silly accord to my Mercedes E-class because my diesel gets the same 30mpg he does. My door outweighs his whole car. But I get 10mpg better, or 50% than the gas version, the 300E.

The single cam TDi's were known to be quite a bit more reliable than the twin cams. I have a 1.6L non turbo jetta diesel.

Come do the dirty dark side will, but there is much reading to be done.

Its all in what you want to do, the new TDi jettas are a long way from the shitboxes that are MK2 and MK3 cars, those were tin cans with diesels engines in them, the Mk4, 5, and now 6 are at least nice places to be inside. But in terms of old stuff, my Jetta gets 38-41, my benz gets 25-31, and I drive the Benz little 99% of the time, just such a nicer car to be in.

Yeah, it's the difference between a decent car with great mileage and a great car with decent mileage.