Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

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Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

TV show called Musclecar. Its sort of like Horsepower tv, or Hot Rod tv, or whatever its called now.

Anyways they had an older late 60's early 70's style buick on with a 455 in it. BIG POWER!!!!!! No replacement for displacement right? I was thinking to myself, ok, this has to make some decent power. Nope. They strapped it to the dyno, and it made a whopping 190 whp. I fell out of my seat. This was a factory style rebuild of the 455. Of course they went into the upgrades after that. Aluminum heads, intake, cam, bigger carb, long tube headers, trans, higher stall, of course time ran out before they could redyno. I suppose I have to tune in next time to see what it puts down.

The funny thing is, they then had an old 67 I think olds 442 on the show with a special racing package or whatever with a tri carb setup that was rated at 360hp from the factory, but then they went on to say that it was probably really "north of 400 hp" LOL is this a joke? You just had a 455 on that made shit for power, and now you turn around and claim a higher hp output than what the factory rated their motors at. Thats hilarious.

Its no wonder the old school losers on pedo-cks think the sbc swap is always make north of 350 hp no matter what head and cam package is in it. Its old musclecar old skool retarded logic. Its obvious where the SBC crowd on Old Europe get their arguing material from. What an embarrassment.
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Re: Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by slowpoke »

I watch that show from time to time. The 442 was supposed to be a factory "built" engine, the 455 was originally a mild build, what's hard to get about the 442 having more power with less displacement under those circumstances? Displacement is hardly a factor in comparing those builds. Thats like saying why did the LT1 out perform the L98, they are the same displacement. From what I've heard, many engines were rated lower than what they actually produced back in the day, something about government regulations and getting into certain classes for racing. On the show Horsepower they did replica builds of the 454 from the SS chevelle, hemi barracuda, and an engine from one of the Mustangs and all three dynoed with way more power than what they were rated for. If I remember correctly the hemi was rated at over 100 hp under it's actual power.
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Re: Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

My father had a 427 vette from I think 67. Split window, yadda yadda. GM rated it at 427 crank hp from 427 cubic inches. It was a tri carb setup.

My father raced this car and owned his own machine shop back in the day. After buying it, he tore the engine down, blueprinted it, installed all new components, and threw it on a engine dyno. It made 427 or so crank hp.(he can't remember the exact number) He does however remember it was damn near the factory GM crank rating of that motor. So all this talk about how these engines made so much more power than from the factory is total BS. No engine can breath through shitty exhaust manifolds.

This 455 in the buick made 194 whp and only 271 tq!! Thats a total joke man. Ask them what it makes before the dyno, and I am sure they would have said much much higher than that. 271 TQ from 455 cubic inces? No replacement for displacement?

One has to remember that the way HP numbers were rated back then are different than they are now. GM and everyone else didn't have waterpumps on, nor alternators and a/c equip. Plus they would run them without full exhausts, and on top of that would run vacuum pumps out the exhaust to actually help pull the exhaust out of the engine on the dyno.

I would seriously question any hp rating from current "factory style" hemi builds replicating the old school motors. Maybe thats just me though.

The funny thing about the 442 car on the show(not the one on the dyno) was that it had 7 inch wide tires. They claimed it would do a 12 second qtr mile, and at the same time, they showed the owner launching it, and just tearing those tires to shreds through the top of second gear. LOL no car is going to run a 12 with those tiny tires spinning to the top of second, with only 360 rated crank hp and a 3300 lb car.
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Re: Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by slowpoke »

I am by no means saying that all this shit is true. Those hp ratings were just something I had seen on that show. I agree that the 455's numbers are pathetic but it's not like there wasn't potential for more, the 442 used more of it's potential I would assume.

I've seen you mock the statement "no replacement for displacement" about a thousand times. I'm just curious, are you under the impression that cast iron 4.8, 5.3, 5.7, and 6.0 LS style engines, will all have the same numbers when built for power? Do you think the smaller engines will produce more? (I'm sure you don't) when all this shit was about fiero's I understood your point, but now your putting it into everything. If you fuck a chick with a 2 inch grub worm pecker really fast is it the same as hittin it with a 10 inch anaconda dick? It's all about displacement, skills are what makes the biggest difference, but they can be applied to either.
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Re: Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by BC2002SS »

that was a 70"s Buick on the show. Split window was only 63 Vette. In the late sixty's you could get factory headers but they would come in the trunk and you or the dealer would install.
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Re: Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

ok so it was a 63 vette then.
slowpoke wrote:I am by no means saying that all this shit is true. Those hp ratings were just something I had seen on that show. I agree that the 455's numbers are pathetic but it's not like there wasn't potential for more, the 442 used more of it's potential I would assume.
The hp ratings are what everyone wants to claim. But I don't think I have seen any statements out there from the Big 3 claiming that the engines were under rated and here it is 40 years later now. Thats what everyone else was saying because of savings on insurance. Well if thats the case, then why aren't corvettes being under rated today to save owners money on car insurance? I guess the car makers now don't care about saving us money on our insurance by under rating their engines now?

And yes their is always potential for more from that 455, but you still have to spend a bunch of money and labor on it to get it. Edelbrock heads, new cam, crane roller rockers, long tube headers, bigger carb, all new gaskets, aftermarket ignition with wires, just to name a few. The goal after these mods according to the hosts was a "30-40% increase in hp" Ok so lets say they get 40% out of it. Thats only 90 more hp from all those mods. So we can assume hp would be around 280 at the wheels then from a 455 cubic inch motor? What exactly is under rated hp wise here with all these bolt ons that have 40 years of engineering in them to make more power than parts from 40 years ago?

It would be a shame driving around in this buick, getting 12 mpg, and having a bone stock 09 Civic Si roll up and beat you in a race, and the civic still gets 30 mpg and has 4 doors. A bone stock late model civic si will make about 180 whp. Or hell what about a grand prix gtp 3800 s/c will make 200 whp bone stock.

There is a replacement for displacement. Its called technology.
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Re: Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

Are you negating the advancements in engineering over the past 50 years?

No shit motors made less power in the 60s. Compare a 1961 427ci motor to a 2011 427ci motor, there will in fact be a minor difference in power.



However my German 1972 4.5L V8 makes 190HP with 8:1 compression. The euro-spec 3.5L V8 with 9.5:1 compression made 210HP.
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Re: Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by slowpoke »

Shaun41178(2) wrote:There is a replacement for displacement. Its called technology.
Oh ok, that's what had me confused, I thought they could apply the same technology to all the new engines regardless of displacement. I knew that smaller engines today are making more power than big engines 40 years ago, but I wasn't aware that those advancements could only be applied to a V6.

I don't know why they or anyone else would waste the time of changing all those parts for 90 hp. That one I can't explain unless they will accommodate more aggressive mods later.

I didn't say anything about the insurance conversation you had. The biggest reason I had heard for them under rating the hp numbers was to get the cars into specific race classes for factory cars, but I can't verify that.
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Re: Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

CincinnatiFiero wrote:Are you negating the advancements in engineering over the past 50 years?

No shit motors made less power in the 60s. Compare a 1961 427ci motor to a 2011 427ci motor, there will in fact be a minor difference in power.
.
Ask the old schoolers and they will tell you the motors back then made more power than they were rated at. if thats the case, then those motors were making more power than the motors of today. So according to the old schoolers, engines made more power back then from their advertised rating.

Hell look at Roger garrison, he has posted publicly that the old hemi motors from the factory, even though rated at around 450, were really making 800. Yes, I am not lying. He said 800! Its documented fact on Old Europe.

I am not negating the advancements in engineering over the past 50 years. I am using them to further my argument, that motors back then, didn't make more than they were rated at. If a 7 liter z06 engine is rated at 500 hp, then how could a 7 liter from 65 make more than that with shittier flowing heads, intake, exhaust, and without the latest engineering advancements in head and air flow design?

GM, Ford and Chrysler were involved in horsepower wars back then, just like they are today. More power, meant selling more cars. So they wouldn't be under rating them at all. They were over rating them, which is exactly why they weren't dynoed with the accessories on them, nor with factory style exhausts.
slowpoke wrote:
I don't know why they or anyone else would waste the time of changing all those parts for 90 hp.

I didn't say anything about the insurance conversation you had. The biggest reason I had heard for them under rating the hp numbers was to get the cars into specific race classes for factory cars, but I can't verify that.
I don't know why they would waste their time either. Its a show however, and sponsors pay for it. Edelbrock gets their name out there to thousands of people. Of course Alex4mula on Old Europe did a head, cam and intake swap on his tpi small block for about an 80ish hp gain. I think he used edelbrock parts too. He dynoed like 220 whp with the factory tpi motor, did all the parts swap, along with extensive computer tuning, and ended up with around 303 whp.

I also know you didn't say anything about insurance. I did, but thats because that is the reason some old timers have given me to the motors being "under rated" Insurance was cheaper if the car had less hp. I think its bogus.

That 442 that supposedly makes upwards of 400 even though its only rated at 360. Well if thats the case, then strap the car down on the dyno and find out.

Hey I got an idea. Lets start claiming the 2.8 made more than the advertised 140 hp rating, because of insurance prices. I am sure we could get everyone to buy into that.
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Re: Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by slowpoke »

I don't know why they would waste their time either. Its a show however, and sponsors pay for it. Edelbrock gets their name out there to thousands of people. Of course Alex4mula on Old Europe did a head, cam and intake swap on his tpi small block for about an 80ish hp gain. I think he used edelbrock parts too. He dynoed like 220 whp with the factory tpi motor, did all the parts swap, along with extensive computer tuning, and ended up with around 303 whp.
If you are sure about these numbers then you have just proved my point because the stock TPI 350 was never rated for more than 245 crank hp. If it made 220 at the wheels it must have been under rated to start with.

What roger garrison states as "fact" has absolutely no bearing on anything I believe.

Check out this link, the guy gives a source so maybe you can find the article and check his facts
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/sh ... hp?t=33343

I guess the reason some of the engines back then made good power is because they didn't have to worry about mpg and emissions standards until the 70's. Yes, stock 6 liter engines are just now getting back to the hp of the sixties but now they are getting over 20 mpg wit no emissions.
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Re: Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

There is a big difference in the rating methods... that's for sure.

Back then, the standard (I'm not sure if there really was a technical standard) was "gross horsepower". As noted above, that meant the engine wasn't turning its own waterpump, alternator, power steering pump, etc. It certainly wasn't dyno'd with a full exhaust and may have even had a vacuum drawn on the exhaust.

Nowadays we have an SAE standard that defines how horsepower will be measured. Maybe you remember a few (4 or 5?) years back, the standard was revised. A bunch of overrated import engines ended up losing a couple of rated ponies, while some domestics gained a couple.

The difference between the two standards could easily be 30-40 horsepower.

I don't trust sponsored media at all. Who knows what they screwed up along the way, or if the build even actually happened?

OBTW: Alex4mula's engine was already modded to put down 236 RWHP: http://www.fiero.com/forum/Forum3/HTML/000084.html
AFR heads and an Edelbroke TPI base.

Too bad he did an Rcheee style install on the transmission...
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Re: Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

slowpoke wrote:
If you are sure about these numbers then you have just proved my point because the stock TPI 350 was never rated for more than 245 crank hp. If it made 220 at the wheels it must have been under rated to start with.

What roger garrison states as "fact" has absolutely no bearing on anything I believe.

Check out this link, the guy gives a source so maybe you can find the article and check his facts
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/sh ... hp?t=33343

I guess the reason some of the engines back then made good power is because they didn't have to worry about mpg and emissions standards until the 70's. Yes, stock 6 liter engines are just now getting back to the hp of the sixties but now they are getting over 20 mpg wit no emissions.
I never said Alex4mulas tpi was bone stock when he installed it. He might have had a few upgrades here or there to get a couple of hp back. I would have to go back and check to be sure. I however don't care enough to do so. I am sure it wasn't right as it came from the factory as he used different exhaust manifolds, a shorter exhaust then an Fbody, and pretty sure he had an intake. That could be worth 15 hp total.

Not to mention, hp calculations according to SAE standards have also changed over the years. Motors now are rated differently than back then. Motors make less hp through the rated SAE standards now. Which means the motors back then, if put on a dyno of today, because of how they are rated, would make less hp automatically due to the new SAE standard. Not only that but the motors are tested as they are in the application they are going to be put in. Meaning all the accessories are hooked up, and full exhaust is too. Something that wasn't done back in the 60's

Edit: oops didnt' see Will's post above before responding, so I pretty much just repeated what he said. Also Alex's setup made 236 not 220 like I meantioned. My bad on that, but still pretty close.
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Re: Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

UPDATE

they just redynoed with all the hop up parts on it, and it made 290 whp and about 350 tq. From a souped up 455? WOW!!!

Funny part was if you watched the vid, it was just pouring blue smoke out of it and the removed the air filter and lid to get more airflow to get that extra couple of hp. it would have been less obviously if they left the filter and lid on. Hilarious!!

Update 2: it ran a 13.8 at 101 at the track.
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Re: Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

Thats what a 4.6 mustank runs with bolt ons, and a Cutlass outweighs the moon, 13.8 isn't too shabby IMO. What did they run stock? 15.5?
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Re: Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

Shaun41178(2) wrote: Hey I got an idea. Lets start claiming the 2.8 made more than the advertised 140 hp rating, because of insurance prices. I am sure we could get everyone to buy into that

This.


Along with the Lotus suspension I heard the 88GTs put down 200HP, but they were underrated to not cut into corvette sales. Go.
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Re: Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by Fastback86 »

Come on, Shaun, Google is your friend. The car is a '73 Buick Century. That year, the 455 Century was officially rated at ... wait for it ... 250 hp. 190 hp at the wheels is low, but not that low considering where it started.

As for underrating, the story goes that insurance companies had finally started to charge more for high-horsepower cars by the late '60s, so the official power was underrated to keep customers buying more expensive hi-po cars in the face of rising insurance costs.
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Re: Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by Shaun41178(2) »

Fastback86 wrote:
As for underrating, the story goes
Just that, nothing but a story in my opinion. Horsepower wars, No one was underrating anything.
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Re: Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by Fastback86 »

Shaun41178(2) wrote:
Fastback86 wrote:
As for underrating, the story goes
Just that, nothing but a story in my opinion. Horsepower wars, No one was underrating anything.
"Common knowledge" is more like it. Seems to all stem from an article by Roger Huntington, though I'll be damned if I can find it online. It's pretty much universally accepted now.
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Re: Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

"Universally Accepted" != True
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Re: Anyone watch "Musclecar" on Powerblock?

Post by Aaron »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: !=
Whenever I see that, I'm convinced it's some sort of smiley face. But I can't figure out which one, so I spend 10 minutes trying to figure it out. Like, maybe it's a guy smoking?
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