S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by ericjon262 »

The Dark Side of Will wrote:Repaired E30 shift support rod above with E34 rod below:

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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by Series8217 »

Those are the 600 treadwear stickers
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

I could take it for a spin to burn oil AND rubber.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

I removed the T-case today in preparation for replacing the "Rod Joint" at the transmission end of the shifter rod. My new rod joint is here, but the "plastic washer" (really a foam cushion) that goes inside it and takes whatever slack there may be out of the interface between the transmission shift shaft and the rod joint is on the way from a different supplier. There is an aftermarket supply base for the rod joints, but the plastic washer is BMW only.

There's a "large" (96mm bolt circle?) guibo between the manual transmission and the T-case. This size guibo is usually reserved for the "big block" sixes. I guess that's BMW's concession to the fact that when a jackass like me side-steps the clutch at 6200 RPM, the trans to T-case guibo in an iX will see higher loading than the driveshaft guibo of a RWD car. The iX driveshafts use 76mm guibos just like the RWD cars use.

The iX's 96mm guibo is a "common" unit that is still in use today. The catalog description is 96mm/12 meaning a 96mm bolt circle with 12mm bolts. There is a different 96/12 guibo that's called out for the E36 M3, E46 M3, E34 M5 and Z3/Z4 M Roadsters. I wonder if it's thicker than the standard guibo or just made tougher... or internally configured for less driveline lash.

I measure the steel sleeves in the Dorman 935-403 listed for the iX as 1.180 thick... I guess I'll go have CarQuest get in the Dorman 935-182 listed for the E34 M5 so I can measure it.
ETA: Dorman lists the M5 guibo as having a "sleeve length" of 35mm while the non-M5 guibo has a sleeve length of 30mm, which matches what I measured on the ones I have.

The mysteries of the 96/12 guibos solved, I remembered that the E34 540i is rated for more torque than the E34 M5. There is a 105/14 guibo listed for that car. That guibo is also listed for the E38 750i and E46 diesel cars, so it was used on the highest torque cars BMW built at the time, with the exception of... The E39 M5, for which a different part number also called out as 105/14 is listed.

That would be it, but I noticed one application was still missing from my guibo list: E31 850Ci & CSi... They both use 110mm/14's, but with different part numbers. BMW must have been extra confident in the amount of torque their V12 makes, as it actually isn't rated for as much torque as the S62.

For S+G's I looked up the F10 M5. It still uses a 110mm guibo, but the bolt size isn't called out. It's making 600 ftlbs on a cool day, so I guess BMW has altered their drivetrain analysis methods from when they used the same diameter guibo on an 850CSi making 360 ftlbs

//

This is what's necessary to get to the top two bolts on the T-case:

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I measure the width of the rod joint where the shift rod goes through as 1.190". I guess I won't be able to use 1.250" aluminum square stock for a DSSR, then.

Rod Joint:

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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

My T-case bushing was pretty much destroyed. Since I have my T-case out for shifter work, I decided I should replace the mount bushing as well.

Here's how it came out:

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With a big slide hammer:

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The puck is 2.500" in diameter--made from 2.5" round bar--and has to be drilled off-center like this because the bushing bolt hole is off center. The puck has to push the bushing rearward out of the mounting ring, so it has to fit through the same hole the bushing does. The bushing OD is 2.540", but the ends have lead-in chamfers such that the diameter available for pushing on it is pretty much exactly 2.500".

Image

We then used a cap for 2.5" pipe with a hole drilled through it on the rear face of the mounting loop with the off-center puck on the forward side of the bushing and ring. We used 3/8" threaded rod to pull the new bushing into place. We had to use anti-seize on the rod and nut or one of them definitely would have galled... the bushing is a pretty tight fit and fairly difficult to install.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Here is the Borg-Warner T-case, my dad's previous automatic E30 T-case and my manual trans E30 T-case:

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As you can see, the BW unit is a weeeeee bit bigger.

Other views:
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: I measure the width of the rod joint where the shift rod goes through as 1.190". I guess I won't be able to use 1.250" aluminum square stock for a DSSR, then.

Actually, that dimension is across some plastic that "spilled" during manufacture. The dimension of the actual metal part is 1.180 (30mm). The Z3 1.9 shifter is 0.878 where it hooks up to the shift rod.
The shift rod pins are both in the 0.380-0.390 range. There's some wear on the pin at the transmission end, making it measure a little smaller than the shifter end, which remains 0.390 (10mm)

I've read that the length of the iX shift rod is 190mm. My calipers don't go that big, and the part is slightly bent, so the only thing I can do is confirm that it's about that dimension via a tape measure.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

I elected to forego the DSSR this time around.

You can see the end of the shift shaft above the trans output flange in this photo:

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This shows the new (wire lock) vs. old (band lock) rod joint, as well as the other shift linkage parts. The orange thing is a foam cushion that goes into the rod joint before it is installed on the shift shaft.

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Like this:

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Rod joint installed:

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Shift linkage assembled:
You can see the clips on the side of the shift support rod which hold the back up light wiring into the channel on the side of the rod.

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The intricate features of the installation interface of the manual transmission transfer case.

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Rotated the input shaft to see more of the craziness:

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These are the o-rings for the driveshaft and sprocket snout, as well as the part number for the plastic "covering cap" that connects and seals the two o-rings. These o-rings don't just keep junk out of the driveshaft splines, they keep the grease *IN*. My o-rings were so brittle they cracked when I tried to remove them. There was a ring of schmutz around the front output from where the grease had leaked out and schmoozed all over the front of the T-case.

Image
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Hot dang! The 2017 32 spline input shaft group buy is live!

http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105464


Image
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

[img]http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a50 ... gaueyo.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a50 ... 1015356180[/img]

Pics stolen from a dude in Europe.

Soooo.... changing directions on the driveline again.

The GS6-53BZ is BMW's heavy duty transmission used with the turbo 6 cylinder and V8 cars across the product line since the mid 2000's. It's so strong that there's an adapter plate to bolt it up to a Cummins.
BMW never built a V8 AWD version. I can get a V8 RWD version and a I6 AWD version and have a party until I have V8 AWD and I6 RWD units.
Because the different transfer cases use the same bolt pattern, I can bolt up the ATC700 T-case from an E70 X5 in place of the ATC300 from an E90.

Because of the short ratios and 5th gear direct, I'll need to have diffs/gears shipped over from Europe, but I think I'll still end up better off in the cost department, probably by a decent margin.
The beautiful thing about these transmissions is that because BMW used them in so many models for such a long period, there are a LOT of them out there. They also never break, so demand is low. Using Car-Parts.com I was able to find a V8 transmission for $500, a I6 AWD for $450 and a T-case for $350 in a casual search, not even waiting for a good deal. There was even a V8 box on Ebay for $350.

As shown above, because of all the extra junk in the E30 driveline--the semi-divorced transfer case and guibo between trans and T-case--the two drivelines are VERY close to the same length, so relatively little floor pan surgery should be required.

The T-case is an xDrive unit. This means that the rear output is straight through... just a shaft. It turns all the time. The front output passes 100% of its drive torque through a clutch pack that is squeezed by an electro-mechanical actuator. I should be able to build an Ardruino based controller for that fairly easily. It'll be good practice, at least.

Now that I think about it, there *may* be something on the Skyline aftermarket that could control the T-case.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by Aaron »

I'm not sure if that is the same trans used on the N54 twin turbo 3.0, but if so, a word of caution. It is common knowledge in the N54 community that the auto trans guys cannot upgrade their turbochargers because the trans starts slipping right away. The guys call it an auto-tragic, because they fail as soon as they bypass the stock turbo limit (Which is about 500whp/540wtq when absolutely maxxed).
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by Series8217 »

It's a manual transmission.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by Aaron »

Jesus I'm an idiot sometimes.

Umm, ya, I haven't heard of any 6MT failures. But high RPM WOT shifts could be a lot better. I've heard better gear oil in the trans makes a world of difference.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The S62 factory redline is 7000, so I'll keep that in mind. Thanks!
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

I realized that my best option for diffs was to give up the idea of the 210mm rear diff and go for a 188mm unit.

The TR-6060 with 3.01 first and 0.56 sixth would have worked great with readily available 3.64 diff gears. That would have resulted in a 10.96:1 overall first and a 2.04:1 overall sixth. That's geared shorter than an LS1 F-body and on shorter tires, but still darn good for a BMW.

The GS6-53BZ with 4.3ish first and 0.87 sixth with 2.35 diff gears would give me 10.1:1 overall first with 2.04 overall sixth. The overall gearing stays very close, BUT BMW never sold any model with 2.35 gears in the US. In Europe those gears are used in a variety of diesel cars with manual transmissions.

I bought an E46 rear diff out of Lithuania for 50E and 140E to ship to the US... which was still cheaper than most of the other diffs I found.
There are a couple of E53 3.07 front units of the type I will need for the "large pinion" case that's compatible with the numerically low ratios. They're a smidge expensive, but available
The 2.35 front diffs from early 2000's E46 330xd stickshift cars are pretty rare, so I have an eBay search saved to tell me when one of those pops up.

When I get both the E53 3.07 and the E46 2.35 units, I'll have to see what I can do to build a 2.35 unit in the E53 case... with absolutely zero service information. What pinion depth? What pinion bearing preload? What carrier bearing preload? Who knows?

I've also heard that the Quaife for a Z3 1.9 will fit the E53 front diff. The Quaife has to be disassembled and the internal gears flipped over to work in the front diff orientation, but that shouldn't be hard. A Quaife up front and an open diff out back should be everything the driveline can do to help this soon to be nose-heavy pig turn hard.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The Dark Side of Will wrote:Hot dang! The 2017 32 spline input shaft group buy is live!

http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105464


[img]http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s131 ... 816fa9.jpg[/img]

Received!
It's at my dad's house. I'll see if I can convince him to get a decent photo of it to post.
The only major component of a TR-6060 based AWD driveline I lack at the moment is a custom 32 spline output shaft.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Notepad re: radiator hoses:
JGood wrote:I've been using a stock e36 325i lower hose and the Carquest 20923 upper hose for 5 years and 35k miles.
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showpos ... ostcount=2
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: When I get both the E53 3.07 and the E46 2.35 units, I'll have to see what I can do to build a 2.35 unit in the E53 case... with absolutely zero service information. What pinion depth? What pinion bearing preload? What carrier bearing preload? Who knows?

I've also heard that the Quaife for a Z3 1.9 will fit the E53 front diff. The Quaife has to be disassembled and the internal gears flipped over to work in the front diff orientation, but that shouldn't be hard. A Quaife up front and an open diff out back should be everything the driveline can do to help this soon to be nose-heavy pig turn hard.
Hmm... I just noticed that I have been assuming that the 2.35 and 3.07 gears are on the same side of the carrier break. If they're not, the whole plan is shot to hell. Ooops.

The BMW front diffs are variations on the old 168mm light duty rear diffs used with naturally aspirated 4 cylinder engines. There isn't a carrier break in the RWD 168mm diffs, but because of the applications that used that architecture, there aren't any ratios taller than 3.46 or so. The 3.07 and taller gears were never used in the RWD diffs. I suspect that the 2.35 and 3.07 use the same carrier, but it's likely that carrier is different than the 3.64 carrier used by the V8 X5, which is the one that's interchangeable with the Z3 1.9 Quaife. Fortunately I already have a 3.64 carrier to compare to the 3.07 carrier.

The 188mm carrier break is 3.07-/3.15+. There is no carrier break on the 210mm diff; it uses the same carrier from 2.65 to 3.91.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

E53 3.07 front diff is at my dad's house. I'll be able to compare the 3.07 and 3.64 carriers as soon as I get back.

E46 2.35 front diffs are a bit rare and a bit expensive when they do show up. On the plus side, demand is low so they sit on ebay.de for months. The last one I saw for a semi-reasonable price didn't ship to the US or I'd already have it.

I started a thread on www.m5board.com about preventive maintenance for the S62 when I get back: http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5 ... stand.html

Items so far:
-Timing chain guides
-Rod bearings and bolts
-All external seals
-VANOS spring plates

Given the S62's mild redline RPM compared to the S54, I'm surprised it eats rod bearings. The ///M5 board thread says to replace rod bearings whenever the pan is off... which is pretty unequivocal. ARP doesn't have an S62 rod bolt kit, but the S62 uses the same rod bolts as the Euro S50, for which ARP does have a kit.

Unlike the Northstar, the S62 does NOT require timeserting the head bolt holes. Even sleeved high boost forced induction builds (20+ psi!) don't need to sert the head bolt holes. The engine also has 10mm head bolts, which is that much more amazing. Overall, the OE head gasket seal is extremely reliable at stock and moderately modified naturally aspirated power levels. That's great because it means I don't have to pull the heads. Sleeving the block is CONTRA-indicated for naturally aspirated builds.

The S62 has an oil/water heat exchanger in the valley.
Many people doing builds remove this in favor of an oil/air heat exchanger somewhere else. No one has any supporting data, except that Dinan did it for their race and customer cars. The claim is that the radiant heat from the stock HEX heats up the bottom of the intake plenum, resulting in higher IATs... I find that hard to believe, since the coolant pipes and engine block are all the same temperature as the HEX, so removing the HEX still leaves the bottom of the plenum exposed to those components. There's also the HUGE variable of engine compartment airflow, which of course has already been heated by the radiator before it flows over the engine, which includes between the block and plenum.

However, the above *does* make a good argument for insulating the bottom of the plenum.

Another juicy piece of info is that the M62, which does not have the oil/water HEX, in some markets had an external oil/air HEX. That cooler was supplied via connections on the oil filter adapter/housing. The flow to those connections was ALSO thermostatically controlled by a thermostat in the housing. I think I will definitely get one of those setups for my car to use in ADDITION to the oil/water HEX. I can even use it with the stock E30 oil cooler.

There was also a rumor that some people previously have used E53 pans in swaps, and found that the E53 oil pump did not provide adequate VANOS oil at low RPM to operate all FOUR of the S62's VANOS actuators. S62's HAVE been swapped into X5's, so I probably need to look up those swaps and see what oil pump/pressure problems they had.

The individual spreading that rumor thought that the rumored swappers had been able to use the S62 oil pump with the E53 pan. I'll have to get the pumps off and play with the parts to see how reasonable I think that is. Another option is the E52 Z8 oil pump. That chassis uses a mid-sump pan similar to the E53 pan, but without the diff mounting bosses and axle tube through the sump. As such its oil pump is set back from the front sump pump configuration used in the M5. That's a $600 oil pump, though. Ooof. The E52 pump drive shaft is also supported by a bushing right behind the sprocket that is supported by the E52 pan. I'd have to build such a support from scratch to use with the E53 pan.

With regard to the timing chain guide replacement, I will actually investigate swapping to an M60 style timing drive which uses an idler sprocket instead of the M62/S62's idiotic and problematic U-shaped chain guide. Those parts list for ~$300 and swap into an M62 just fine. I've examined photos and been able to verify that all but one of the bolt holes are still present in the S62 block. I have not verified that the last bolt hole is not present... I just haven't been able to verify that it is.

The E53 uses the same subframe for I6 and V8. The right mounts appear to be forward of where they are in other platforms such as the E39, but the left mounts are rearward. Thus the right mount arm appears to be a good candidate for use with my custom crossmember, but I may need to make my own left mount arm... not a big deal, and still easier than making both mount arms.

E39 and E34 exhaust manifolds are dual outlet, with each pair of outlets coming together at that bank's catalyst. This results in Tri-Y behavior and sound from the stock exhaust. Due to the presence of the front diff, I will have to use an E53 left exhaust manifold. As both E53 manifolds are single outlet, using an E53 right manifold makes the most sense in terms of balancing the exhaust system for each bank. I'm not sure whether it will still sound like an ///M5 or if it will sound more like a muscle car. It'll definitely have an X-pipe in the exhaust and probably dual 2.5" pipes for the rest.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by Aaron »

As far as the HEX goes, remember people are fucking stupid.

The N54 has a air/oil cooler stock, and it thermostatically controls oil flow. The car still takes forever to get oil temps up to normal operating range. Once it does, the temps sit right at 250. To be fair, a few minutes on the track and those climb quickly. I believe limp mode comes in around 300, but I've never gotten the temps that high, despite some prolonged aggressive driving at 470whp, including on the track.

The big mods are to replace the factory cooler with a giant one, and to either remove the thermostat or to modify it so it flows more. I fail to believe even 2% of these people have ever encountered a oil temp related limp mode or other problem. Once people have done these mods, it takes around 30 minutes of normal driving before oil temps even come off the peg.

These same people freak out when they hear how high our coolant temps run, and swear by lowering it 20-40 degrees via flash tunes.

Bottom line, dumb people think cooler is better, all the time.

Now for my question to you, does the S62 have a problem with quickly rising temps during spirited driving? My old SRT8 Jeep did, but that didn't have an oil cooler at all, and although temps rose, they stabilized around 270 or so. I still went 25 minutes on the racetrack without any temp issues, though they were higher than usual.

I personally doubt the S62 has oil temp issues, however this is definitely more from theory and not any actual experience. It's got a fairly low specific output and does not rev to the moon and back. I'd leave the oil cooling system stock until you run into problems personally. Absolutely don't ditch the oil/water cooler though, those have the healthy side effect of bringing oil up to normal temp quicker.
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