8217's E46 M3 - Stage 2 (V8 Swap)

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8217's E46 M3 - Stage 2 (V8 Swap)

Post by Series8217 »

The Dark Side of Will wrote:Not quite...
S62 with E53 X5 oil pan and front diff into E30 325iX body with E34 ZF transmission and E30 T-case. The transmission from a E34 530i (V8) has the right bellhousing. The rear case half from the Euro-market E34 525iX should bolt on to the V8 transmission and let me mount the transfer case.
Ah, cool. I was looking into an E30 LSx swap a month or two ago after seeing Vorshlag's car in GRM, but after reading more about it decided that wasn't really the chassis I wanted to work with. They look GREAT and are cheap to find and repair, but chassis rigidity is lacking, the rear suspension is poor, and putting in a V8 (or the LSx at least) requires a lot of hacking and some crazy fab like converting to hydraulic brake boost since the vacuum booster is too big to fit anywhere.

How well does the S62 fit into the engine bay of the E30?
Last edited by Series8217 on Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fantastic V8 swap candidate

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The M60 fits very snugly into an E30 engine bay. Being DOHC, it is obviously bulkier than the LSx and leaves less room for all the other things.
The front sump of the RWD M60 fits perfectly around the RWD E30 crossmember.

The left cylinder head covers about three quarters of the stock hole where the vacuum booster mounts.
Simply converting to hydraulic brake boost is really not that hard. Quite a few 7's had hydroboosts. The E23 cars even had remote accumulators which make packaging even simpler. The Hydroboost conversion is pretty common M50 or S50 swapped E30's, as it leaves more room for the intake manifold.

The hard part of the brake setup for the M60 swap is that the entire linkage needs to be relocated.
See this thread for links to interesting ideas: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh ... ?t=1698125

The basis for most of the remote booster builds in the E30 is BMW's factory remote booster installation in V8 E34's. This uses a rocker arm to convert the push from the pedal into a pull which operates a pull rod, which pulls on another rocker arm which pushes on the remote booster. I purchased one of these setups that was already modified for use in an E30. I will probably end up using the E34 booster-end hardware with a custom pedal-end rocker arm similar to the fully custom LS1 swap linkage pictured in the above thread, but *inside* the firewall.

Image

Image

The brake linkage issue has been tackled in a couple of different ways and isn't that big a deal, IMO.
The steering linkage with the E53 V8 front diff looks like it'll take some thinking, however. Because the V8 sits "vertical" and the I6 is leaned over, the block skirt on the diff side of the I6 is higher. This means that the diff can tuck into the I6 much closer to the crankshaft centerline than it can with the V8. The diff sticks out the side of the pan more with the V8 and, as I'm finding out, interferes with more stuff. AND between the steering, diff, axle and driveshaft, a 2.5" exhaust pipe also has to find its way out.

The mid-sump of the AWD M60 *appears* to fit well around the AWD E30 crossmember, but I won't really know until I get the engine into the engine bay. I have a lot of measurements to take to convince myself that this will work before I drop $3-4K on a car.

And other than buying a harness, I haven't even touched the DME yet...

The big issue with the LS1 E30 swap appears to be the oil pan. The couple of swaps I've seen documented use a modified GTO oil pan. I can't help but think that the extreme rear sump configuration of the truck oil pan would work. That's a SWAG, though.
Because the Chevy bellhousing is large, it apparently doesn't fit all the way into the E30 trans tunnel. This means that the engine has to sit a couple of inches further forward of where it should be, which also means it has to be a little higher. I'm not sure if it could sit lower with the truck pan and go further back, or if modding the firewall to allow it to sit further back would then allow it to sit lower...

Anyway, for a number of reasons an M60 looks like a better swap into an E30 than an LSx.
However, the E36 crossmember configuration makes the M60 swap much harder, but the engine bay layout makes the LSx swap much easier. If you want an LSx powered BMW, start with an E36. :wink:

Edit: It looks like firewall mods to an E30 would be similar to firewall mods to a LSx Miata: http://flyinmiata.com/V8/Newton/index.php?UID=

Image

Edit again: Another similar build: http://flyinmiata.com/projects/targa/Ta ... php?UID=31
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Re: Fantastic V8 swap candidate

Post by Series8217 »

The Dark Side of Will wrote:The M60 fits very snugly into an E30 engine bay. Being DOHC, it is obviously bulkier than the LSx and leaves less room for all the other things.
The front sump of the RWD M60 fits perfectly around the RWD E30 crossmember.

The left cylinder head covers about three quarters of the stock hole where the vacuum booster mounts.
Simply converting to hydraulic brake boost is really not that hard. Quite a few 7's had hydroboosts. The E23 cars even had remote accumulators which make packaging even simpler.
The hard part is that the entire linkage needs to be relocated.
See this thread for links to interesting ideas: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh ... ?t=1698125
I read the entirety of Garret's LS1 E30 build thread a few months back. With the S62 being so much larger than the LSx I figured it would be nearly impossible to fit.
I have a lot of measurements to take to convince myself that this will work before I drop $3-4K on a car.
Are E30s really $3k-$4k where you are? I have no problem finding them for $1k to $2k here running, and ~$600 if you need to bring a trailer... and they're California cars too.. Might be worth looking out here.
However, the E36 crossmember configuration makes the M60 swap much harder, but the engine bay layout makes the LSx swap much easier. If you want an LSx powered BMW, start with an E36. :wink:
Unfortunately there are no California smog-legal headers or manifolds that fit an E36 LSx car. No OEM manifolds fit due to the steering shaft placement. I traded emails with Terry Fair about the issue; they tested every GM manifold they could get their hands on when they were developing the swap. The steering shaft runs through the space that the #7 cylinder exhausts into. Custom headers are the only solution, and that won't get me past the BAR referee inspection. The E46 LSx is not well-developed; a few have been done and Vorshlag is building one now. I'm waiting on updates there to see if the manifold issue is any better.

Did you read up on Vorshlag's V8 E30 build? It looks like they just won the $2011 GRM Challenge with that car since they had time to tune the autocross setup this year and didn't blow up another T5. They did some rear subframe work, and I believe they also swapped in some E36 suspension parts. Might be good stuff to consider for yours.
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Re: Fantastic V8 swap candidate

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Series8217 wrote: I read the entirety of Garret's LS1 E30 build thread a few months back. With the S62 being so much larger than the LSx I figured it would be nearly impossible to fit.
It's a little surprising, but I think the M60 swap would be easier, mostly due to the oil pan, somewhat the size of the bellhousing. The S5D-310Z from the E34 530i even bolts *directly* to the stock E30 transmission mounts from the Getrag 260 AND uses a standard BMW driveshaft (E36 M3, I think).
Check out this thread for swap info: http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=223866
Heck, you can *BUY* the engine mount brackets for it...
As I implied above, I've seen one in person, had it up on a lift and crawled around it taking pictures. I may post some this weekend.
Series8217 wrote: Are E30s really $3k-$4k where you are? I have no problem finding them for $1k to $2k here running, and ~$600 if you need to bring a trailer... and they're California cars too.. Might be worth looking out here.
If you want a 2 door, 5 speed iX in good condition, be prepared to pay that much. The front body structure, strut towers and floorpan/trans tunnel are different, so a RWD car can not be easily converted to AWD. OTOH, once he saw how nice my E34 is, my dad picked up an '88 325is 2 door automatic for my mom for $700. And really likes it. Had to do an on-site fuel pump replacement (20 minute job in an E30!) but drove it home.
Series8217 wrote: Unfortunately there are no California smog-legal headers or manifolds that fit an E36 LSx car. No OEM manifolds fit due to the steering shaft placement. I traded emails with Terry Fair about the issue; they tested every GM manifold they could get their hands on when they were developing the swap. The steering shaft runs through the space that the #7 cylinder exhausts into. Custom headers are the only solution, and that won't get me past the BAR referee inspection. The E46 LSx is not well-developed; a few have been done and Vorshlag is building one now. I'm waiting on updates there to see if the manifold issue is any better.
Thought about using a bunch of Flaming River u-joints to re-route the steering shaft? Street rod builders deal with "exotic" steering shaft geometries all the time.
If you wanted to get really fancy, you could build 90 degree gearboxes using parts McMaster keeps in stock...
I may end up re-engineering the iX's power steering system to get the stock spool valve out of the way of the E53 diff, so I'm kinda tuned in to those issues right now..
Series8217 wrote: Did you read up on Vorshlag's V8 E30 build? It looks like they just won the $2011 GRM Challenge with that car since they had time to tune the autocross setup this year and didn't blow up another T5. They did some rear subframe work, and I believe they also swapped in some E36 suspension parts. Might be good stuff to consider for yours.
I did, and it's an impressive build. A little intelligent development testing goes a hell of a long way. They say many times, however, that they'd do a LOT of things differently if not on such a strict budget. MANY of those things were the E36 parts selections. The "Rally Mods" to the trailing arms and the E36 diff cover with additional body mount help the rear suspension, but they still broke a half-shaft in the $2010 Challenge.

I have heard that either E28 or E34 rear subframes are fairly easy to install in E30's. This improves the forward weight bias (unfortunately by *adding* weight to the rear :( ) but generally solves all the component breakage problems that the E30 rear has. The E28/E34 rear can even accept the large case (210mm) diff, if you *REALLY* want to run some power...
Since I have access to both an E30 and an E34, I should get busy with a measuring tape and figure some of these things out...
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8217's E46 M3 - Stage 2 (V8 Swap)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Series8217 wrote: Unfortunately there are no California smog-legal headers or manifolds that fit an E36 LSx car. No OEM manifolds fit due to the steering shaft placement. I traded emails with Terry Fair about the issue; they tested every GM manifold they could get their hands on when they were developing the swap. The steering shaft runs through the space that the #7 cylinder exhausts into. Custom headers are the only solution, and that won't get me past the BAR referee inspection. The E46 LSx is not well-developed; a few have been done and Vorshlag is building one now. I'm waiting on updates there to see if the manifold issue is any better.
I PM'd Fair on Corner-Carvers...
Fair on Corner-Carvers wrote: Its not just the steering shaft that gets in the way. Every passenger side manifold we've tried hits the unibody/frame. The LSx manifolds are just routed the wrong way for these cars.

Most of the testing I did on OEM manifolds was in 2002-2003. I cannot find any pictures from these tests, but I had several sets of eyes there with me to verify. Neither side fit, at all. We tried F-Body ('98-02), C5 Corvette, and LSx truck manifolds.

A lot of time has passed since then, and people want to "see" that they don't fit. We've always got 1-2 E36 LSx cars going together here in the shop, so I asked Steve to send me some OEM manifolds and I'd take pictures and/or video of the mock-ups. He said he'd try to round up some new manifolds that have come out since 2002-2003, like SSR and TrailBlazer SS.
I find it hard to believe that with the variety of new LSx applications introduced since '03 that there's *nothing* that will work...
SSR, TBSS, LS7, LS3, new truck configurations, new Camaro manifolds, yada yada... Heck, even an LS4 front might be a starting point... It's kind of similar to the E53 left manifold that's necessary for an E30 M60 swap.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by Atilla the Fun »

So who says they have to dump downward and rearward? Flip them all over, upside-down. If any clear that way, whether they dump forward or rearward, then progress can resume. It may take a bulged hood. Fine. No stealth to this swap anyway. It may take serious firewall and floorpan surgery. Fine. No point in this swap if you value ease and comfort over acceleration.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Tell that to the People's Respublik of Kalifornia.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by Atilla the Fun »

They don't care either, as long as the cat stays the same distance from the exhaust manifold. But if the steering is the only holdup, then the street-rod market has a solution.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

If you change to a forward dump manifold (which is what it sounds like you were suggesting), then you have to package the cat in the front area of the engine bay. That's a pretty lousy compomise.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by Atilla the Fun »

How is that any worse than all these front-turbo installs everyone is doing?
Or go back to the stock 6-cylinder, then do a rear-turbo, like Squires' / STS.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Somebody in the M60 swap thread on R3V said that if you want to do a V8 swap into an E30, a turbo six probably isn't going to scratch your itch, even if it does make more power. I generally agree. :-D
The forward dump is just ugly because once you do that, you have to figure out what to do with the pipe... Or maybe admit you just signed yourself up for a turbo build.

Also, *can* they be flipped upside down?
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by crzyone »

The Dark Side of Will wrote:Somebody in the M60 swap thread on R3V said that if you want to do a V8 swap into an E30, a turbo six probably isn't going to scratch your itch, even if it does make more power.
And thus, V8 Archi e is still in business.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by Series8217 »

Atilla the Fun wrote:They don't care either, as long as the cat stays the same distance from the exhaust manifold. But if the steering is the only holdup, then the street-rod market has a solution.
For the most part that's true, but I think putting two cats on top of the hood is not practical.

We should probably get back on to Will's original topic though.

I'd offer to start a build thread for my project to move this discussed to, but it's just musings for now until I work out the smog manifolds issue. I have lots of other chassis I'm looking into as well.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Atilla the Fun wrote:It may take serious firewall and floorpan surgery. Fine. No point in this swap if you value ease and comfort over acceleration.
Lol... If you don't mind cutting the firewall and floorpan, then why not section the frame rail to clear the exhaust manifold?

After all, Rcheee does that for LT1 and LS1 swaps...
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by Series8217 »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: I PM'd Fair about the possibility of using an LS4 front manifold on the E36 left side as well as some pics linked from Pfiffle.
Yeah I had sent him some pics of the LS4 manifolds as well. He's familiar with the motor and thought there was a possibility it might work but I think its really hard to tell with just photos. Gonna need to test fit. I think WCF may have some LS4 manifolds around so I'm going to send him some if they do.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

In the case of the E30 V8, the smaller bellhousing on the LS4 might allow the engine to sit further back in the engine bay than the regular LSx engines. Of course, the need for a bellhousing mounted starter would still eat up space in the transmission tunnel.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by Aaron »

THE LSX manifolds are often formed steel, I'm wondering how hard it would be to build a shorty header that appears to be a stock manifold to the nazis. I bet it could be done.
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Steven's BMW V8 Swap 2

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Series8217 wrote:I have lots of other chassis I'm looking into as well.
E34's aren't as light as E46's, but they're lighter than E39's and were built with V8's by BMW. A 530i can be had pretty cheap and already has the brake booster and frame rail clearance for a V engine. I'm not sure about the oil pan clearance, though. The bodies are tough, the running gear is stout and the build quality is excellent. I read a thread on BimmerForums by a guy who took a car exactly like mine (even green), added a turbo setup, tunable computer, high performance clutch and drag radials... then ran 10's.
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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by Aaron »

And plus you can be cool like me. Manual transmission for faster lap times. Complete with body damage on every body panel. Sunroof, windshield wipers, windows, and the radio mysteriously stop working about 1-2 minutes, the heater only blows through passenger side defrost and/or the face vents (But only at 50% air flow on the face vents), and not at all to my feets. The A/C doesn't work of course, which has me wondering why I haven't removed it. The locking gas cap door was broken by an assuming female who couldn't figure out how to open it. It has pry marks on it, and the marks are very consistent with the car's key. Power door locks don't work, and in the summer I leave the windows down since they stop working, so nothing is kept inside of the car. The leather seats have a full 1" WIDE tear at almost every seem, for the length of the seam. Surprisingly still more comfortable and supportive than Lumina seats. Foglights are out because the lenses got cracked by rocks and water got in. Not worth the packaging tape to fix them. Has a constant washer fluid low, and brake linings warning. And it shows 247,000 miles on it. Engine runs great, trans shifts well.

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Re: S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Not sure what your point with that post was. I don't think it was a mystery to you what shape the car was in when you bought it.
530's *tend* to be better taken care of than 525's, of course.
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