8217's E46 M3 - Stage 2 (V8 Swap)

Talk about your other cars here.

Moderator: crzyone

User avatar
Series8217
1988 Fiero Track Car
Posts: 5971
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Steven's BMW V8 Swap

Post by Series8217 »

OK so you can fit 275s (even 285s it seems) on all four corners of an M3 with coilovers. (see http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=363951)

This is really just BEGGING for an AWD setup.

Also E46 M3 prices are dropping by like $1k every 60 days. They're around $15-17k for 80-100k mileage now. S54+SMGII partouts are in the $4k range. That would ALMOST get me an LS2+T56... so AWD may fit in the budget. Need to find out more about the structural differences in the E46 AWD cars.

Also the 8.8 may become a necessity if I do AWD, so that I can match the front diff ratio and still have a good one.
User avatar
Aaron
I just wanna ride my motorcycle
Posts: 5957
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:15 am
Contact:

Re: Steven's BMW V8 Swap

Post by Aaron »

We've probably already covered this, but if so I can't find it.

How easy is the LSX into an E46? I assume the wiring is a bitch and a half, and getting it to work with the BMW OBC is all but impossible, but I really haven't done much research.
88GT 3.4 DOHC Turbo
Gooch wrote:Way to go douche. You are like a one-man, fiero-destroying machine.
The Dark Side of Will
Peer Mediator
Posts: 15610
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: In the darkness, where fear and knowing are one
Contact:

Re: Steven's BMW V8 Swap

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Getting the engine to run isn't any harder than any other Gen III/IV swap.
This guy has successfully done an E46 LS swap, for example: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh ... ?t=1673679
It's been a while since I read the whole thing, so I don't remember how he dealt with the instrumentation problems.
User avatar
Series8217
1988 Fiero Track Car
Posts: 5971
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Steven's BMW V8 Swap

Post by Series8217 »

As far as the RWD drivetrain goes, the only trick is getting stock exhaust manifolds to fit so I can pass smog in Cali. Worst case there is framerail notch + multi-link steering shaft. Best case, the LS3 or LSA manifolds fit with minor modifications.

Besides the smog-related stuff I described above, it's just a typical swap... exhaust, mounts, wiring & plumbing.

Getting the DSC/ABS to be happy will be tricky, but that's not required to pass smog and I have some tricks up my sleeve (see Advanced Tech).

AWD puts the project into entirely new level of complexity, but it's not a "must have" for me yet, just a bonus if it can be made to work.
The Dark Side of Will
Peer Mediator
Posts: 15610
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: In the darkness, where fear and knowing are one
Contact:

Re: Steven's BMW V8 Swap

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The E30 AWD cars use different strut towers than the RWD cars. The AWD cars have almost zero caster. They also use different frame rails for clearance for the axles to go through.
I have no idea how different the E46 Xi strut towers are vs. the RWD strut towers.

I have a .pdf of the changes made to the E46 chassis to make it AWD... I don't remember where I found it, but I can email it to you.

Edit: My friend Google found it: http://www.e46fanatics.com/forum/attach ... 1257119324

Edit again:
Per RealOEM, the strut tower stamping appears to be the same part number between the Xi and M3, *however* the assembly of strut tower with upper and lower frame rails is a different part number. I didn't look into it any futher.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do ... g=41&fg=10
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do ... g=41&fg=10
User avatar
Series8217
1988 Fiero Track Car
Posts: 5971
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Steven's BMW V8 Swap

Post by Series8217 »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: I have a .pdf of the changes made to the E46 chassis to make it AWD... I don't remember where I found it, but I can email it to you.

Edit: My friend Google found it: http://www.e46fanatics.com/forum/attach ... 1257119324
I posted that earlier in this thread.
Per RealOEM, the strut tower stamping appears to be the same part number between the Xi and M3, *however* the assembly of strut tower with upper and lower frame rails is a different part number. I didn't look into it any futher.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do ... g=41&fg=10
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do ... g=41&fg=10
Well, the 300xi is a sedan and the M3 is a coupe; that could be part of the difference.

I'll look into that more. Thanks.
User avatar
Series8217
1988 Fiero Track Car
Posts: 5971
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Steven's BMW V8 Swap

Post by Series8217 »

Looks like the difference is due to AWD; here are links to the 330i and 330xi.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do ... g=41&fg=10
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do ... g=41&fg=10

Probably axle or diff clearance..
The Dark Side of Will
Peer Mediator
Posts: 15610
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: In the darkness, where fear and knowing are one
Contact:

Re: Steven's BMW V8 Swap

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Series8217 wrote: I posted that earlier in this thread.

Pffffft... That's, like, FOUR PAGES... you don't, like, expect me to *READ*, do you? Da Fuq?
The Dark Side of Will
Peer Mediator
Posts: 15610
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: In the darkness, where fear and knowing are one
Contact:

Re: Steven's BMW V8 Swap

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Series8217 wrote:Looks like the difference is due to AWD; here are links to the 330i and 330xi.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do ... g=41&fg=10
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do ... g=41&fg=10

Probably axle or diff clearance..
Nothing like visual inspection. I'm sure you can find AWD and RWD E46's to park next to each other so you can compare.
For example, on the E30, the tops of the strut towers are close to 4" further from the firewall in the AWD body vs. the RWD body.
The Dark Side of Will
Peer Mediator
Posts: 15610
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: In the darkness, where fear and knowing are one
Contact:

Re: Steven's BMW V8 Swap

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Series8217 wrote:OK so you can fit 275s (even 285s it seems) on all four corners of an M3 with coilovers. (see http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=363951)
Vorschlag also discusses E46 wheel/tire fitment in decent depth here: http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/sh ... hp?t=42147
Numbers as big as 305 are mentioned.
Streetable with that tire size? Don't know.
User avatar
Series8217
1988 Fiero Track Car
Posts: 5971
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Steven's BMW V8 Swap

Post by Series8217 »

LSA manifolds on their way to Vorshlag for test-fitting.. seems they've been pretty busy lately, but now they have like 3 sets of manifolds from me, so hopefully they can make time to test them out on their E46 test mule.
The Dark Side of Will
Peer Mediator
Posts: 15610
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: In the darkness, where fear and knowing are one
Contact:

Re: Steven's BMW V8 Swap

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Does the People's Republic require that the OE manifolds be unmodified?
User avatar
Series8217
1988 Fiero Track Car
Posts: 5971
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Steven's BMW V8 Swap

Post by Series8217 »

Technically no emissions-related parts can be modified or removed. The manifolds qualify as emissions-related parts. I technically am not even allowed to put LSA manifolds on an LS2. However, I don't think a BAR ref would notice, and even if they did, they might let it pass. Grinding reliefs into the manifold, or even flipping them around backwards is OK; people do it all the time on Fiero swaps. For example, one common way to do route the exhaust on an LQ1 (3.4 DOHC V6 from the W-body) is to use a front manifold on the rear of the motor, and building a Y-pipe to route the exhaust the Fiero way. Fabricating headers or manifolds is a no-no.
The Dark Side of Will
Peer Mediator
Posts: 15610
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:13 pm
Location: In the darkness, where fear and knowing are one
Contact:

Re: Steven's BMW V8 Swap

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

So emissions related parts can't be modified or removed, but a Y-pipe can be fabricated from scratch and incorporated? So which catalyst would be required in that situation? Does it have to be the same distance from the engine as stock Fiero? Stock Lumina?

I guess that's the grey area of engine swapping.
User avatar
Series8217
1988 Fiero Track Car
Posts: 5971
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Steven's BMW V8 Swap

Post by Series8217 »

The Dark Side of Will wrote:... a Y-pipe can be fabricated from scratch and incorporated?
Technically, it's not allowed, but BAR referees have historically passed recertification on most swaps that do so. Note that on my LQ1 Fiero I did NOT fabricate a Y pipe; I'm using the stock manifolds and crossover pipe, and the cat is actually closer to the downpipe outlet than stock.
So which catalyst would be required in that situation? Does it have to be the same distance from the engine as stock Fiero? Stock Lumina?
It has to be the catalyst from the engine being swapped in. It's supposed to be at least as close to the manifolds as the cat was for the engine that was being swapped it.
I guess that's the grey area of engine swapping.
Yup.
CincinnatiFiero
Posts: 2908
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:47 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Steven's BMW V8 Swap

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

I have all the air pump stuff for LS1 if you need it Steven including the electric air pump.
User avatar
Series8217
1988 Fiero Track Car
Posts: 5971
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Steven's BMW V8 Swap

Post by Series8217 »

Thanks Paul.

At this point though, it looks like I'll have to buy a complete LS2 donor car. The sale and importation of used catalytic converters is banned in California, and the only approved replacement cats are the OEM ones for $1200 each (I need two). It will simply not be economical for me to buy a drivetrain and then get the cats from the GM dealer (the only legal source).

So in about 12 months I'll probably be shopping for a salvage title 6-speed LS2 GTO. It will need working cats, and a rebuildable LS2 and T56.

If I decide to go with a Gen III motor, I could get an LS6 CTS-V drivetrain. Those cats are only ~$400 each from the dealer.

EDIT: Hmm! LS2 CTS-V cats are the same as the LS6 ones. Nice! Guess I just need to smog it as a CTS-V, not a GTO.
Last edited by Series8217 on Mon May 28, 2012 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Series8217
1988 Fiero Track Car
Posts: 5971
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Steven's BMW V8 Swap

Post by Series8217 »

I finished the first draft of my build sheet so I have an idea of the budget for this project now.

LSA manifolds are on their way to Vorshlag for test-fitting in their E46 LS1 test mule. Hopefully I'll have some manifold fitment results in the next few weeks.

I'm just about ready to buy a donor car. It will be a 2002-2004 M3. This gives me the option of using any year CTS-V drivetrain. If I get a 2005 or later, I can't get an early CTS-V engine and pass California smog, since the law requires that the donor engine be the same year or newer than the car.

I'm looking for a car with ~80k miles, cinnamon or black interior (or really anything but gray or red), Silver Gray Metallic exterior. Alpine White may be okay. More mileage is OK too if well maintained. I'd prefer a 6-speed car, but I'll buy one with an SMG if it otherwise fits my requirements, and is in good operating condition. The parts to convert to a normal 6-speed are not very expensive, except for the computer reprogramming, as apparently all the computer modules need to be re-flashed with the 6-speed code.

I've been spending most of my time finishing up the Fiero so I can sell it. I think I can store it at work while I finish it if I get an M3 before it's done, so I'm keeping an eye out for a good one.

I need to figure out if the ABS relocation for the 2003+ model year M3s is going to cause issues with an LS* swap. For 2001-2002 the ABS module was on the passenger side of the engine bay, well out of the way of pretty much everything. It was relocated to underneath the brake master cylinder in 2003.
Last edited by Series8217 on Tue May 01, 2012 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Series8217
1988 Fiero Track Car
Posts: 5971
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Steven's BMW V8 Swap

Post by Series8217 »

I tried changing the name of this topic to "8217's E46 M3 - Stage 2 (V8 Swap)" by changing the subject of the first post, but it didn't work. Can a mod do this?
User avatar
crzyone
JDM Power FTW
Posts: 4654
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:40 am
Location: Whitecourt, Alberta, Canada

Re: 8217's E46 M3 - Stage 2 (V8 Swap)

Post by crzyone »

Done :)
Post Reply