Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swap?)

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Re: Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swa

Post by crzyone »

My engine with everything bolted to is sans transmission probably weighs that much. Extra diff and 2 turbos with an cast iron block will do that. At least the weight is in a good spot in a Ferrari.
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Re: Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swa

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Aaron wrote:She is kind of a fatty, and big too. LSX ftw!
crzyone wrote:My engine with everything bolted to is sans transmission probably weighs that much. Extra diff and 2 turbos with an cast iron block will do that. At least the weight is in a good spot in a Ferrari.
Small bore spacing makes the engine compact and the dry sump keeps it low in the body. Notice that the axle centerline is well above the crank centerline.
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Re: Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swa

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

I love that the corvette guys missed it. They read 427 and all went WHY BIG BLOCK WHY NO LS!?

The LS7 is a 7.0L 427ci small block...

And everyone is calling it twin turbo, but you can clearly see one supercharger in all the pics.
The new WHT was recently packaged into a 360 Ferrari. Due the Ferrari's unreliable engine and transmission, they were removed and replaced with a LS7-427 Supercharged Chevrolet V8 and our WHT. The engine produces 1100 lbft of torque at the wheels!
Also will, did you see the supercharger is driven by a belt on the back of the transmission? Would that affect the way the supercharger boosts?

On a serious note, when you own that many cars and you destroyed the 3.6 doing what it was intended to do, I'm not bothered by the swap at all. Its not like old Ferraris where some jackass got frustrated trying to tune european carbs so they said screw it and put in an SBC. It was a big dollar job, well done, and is probably still used to its full potential.

Very cool.
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Re: Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swa

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

The Weisman page does show the SC driven by the belt on the back of the transaxle. If it's driven from a shaft that turns at a constant multiple of engine speed, then there wouldn't be any change to the way it works. I'll assume it's done that way, as turning the blower as a function of vehicle speed could be very bad.

I thought that LPE would still build big blocks (and they probably do if you wave a few $$ their way), but I don't see any on their website.

I had heard that the *aluminum* LS engines get unreliable at that power level and bore size, but a Dart iron block would be just fine.

Ditto on seeing actual use doing what it was build to do. That's my intention for my car. Ferrari didn't dry sump their engines for the fuel economy.
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Re: Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swa

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

Who knows, those could be dyno room maximum numbers. I would think a road course car with 1100 wtq could get unwieldy in a car that weight.
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Re: Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swa

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Depends on how good the control and delivery is... the powerband should be pretty linear with the supercharger.

I've seen a video of a 450 HP turbo Elise on a road course. Every time the turbo spooled in mid-corner, he'd spin the car.
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Re: Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swa

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Picked up coil packs (oddly enough made by Marelli and not Bosch) from Latvian Ebay seller for $38 each (two req'd) for NIB parts. That's a nice discount. US sellers want $150-180 each for used ones. Of course every damned Fiat in Europe probably uses these coil packs, so they're nothing to find on that side of the pond.
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Re: Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swa

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

I would appreciate some input from EMC on this...

East coast humidity is starting to take its toll. I can see flash rust on the bare metal through the cracks in the lacquer.
This means I need to do at least some of the body and paint work up front in order to protect the steel from rust while I complete the mechanical work. Paint before wrenches is generally not advised, but it appears to be necessary in this case.

I have an estimate for $7200 from a local guy who's done hot rod type work and is highly recommended. The estimate includes media blasting to remove the existing paint, as well as $2800 in materials for Corvette Jet Stream Blue. I'm not fond of the idea of media blasting. I've heard about media getting into everything and gradually falling out as the car is driven. I'm assuming it also roughens the metal surface and requires additional primer build and sanding.

I'm curious about the dipping and e-coating process. The closest facility I can find offering that service is these guys: http://www.chem-strip.com/

So I'm thinking that if I strip the car to the bare shell and have it e-coated, I could then do the mechanical work (including welding in the new engine mount locations) with the body in primer. I'd probably undercoat it myself and then deliver to the painter fully assembled underhood, with the exterior (and interior if he'd like) still disassembled.
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Re: Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swa

Post by crzyone »

That sounds like a lot of work, but the end result will be amazing.

Pick a color yet?
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Re: Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swa

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Looking at Corvette Jet Stream Blue (ZR1 color). It's a three step process and I'm still learning what that means.

Yes, it would be a lot of work, and yes, the end result would be impressive. That's what a Ferrari is supposed to be! :-D

I'm currently thinking that it should be monotone, but interested in thoughts on things like the blacked out intake flutes on this car: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/190721082910
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Re: Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swa

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

I am assembling a 1958 190SL for a customer, the car was sand blasted on a rotisserie, welding done, then painted. The car was then shipped across country to us. There is sand is every nook, cranny, and edge. And the car was blasted almost 2 years ago.

The shit is a mess.
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Re: Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swa

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

That's pretty much what I'd heard and expected.
I read an account of a guy getting kicked off a dragstrip because his car was leaving crushed walnut shells all over the track.
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Re: Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swa

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

Thats extreme but I'd believe it. I hit this 190SL with an air hose and I couldn't see through the sand storm I created.
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Re: Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swa

Post by Series8217 »

the poi had his 1964 Volvo 122S dipped a few years ago. He's been working on it in his garage since then, and it doesn't have any rust yet. The coating they put on it passivates the surface. If you need to keep the car in a humid area (or outdoors) you would want to seal it with epoxy primer or something.. but it gets everything off, and doesn't leave behind walnut shells or sand or whatever nasty grit...
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Re: Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swa

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Where did he have it done? CA?
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Re: Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swa

Post by Emc209i »

Sand blasting is an alternative if you're working with a frame that's got a million layers of paint on it - or rust or surface contamination. If you're working with the original coat of paint, you should be absolutely fine sanding the coat off with an orbital D/A sander. Sandblasting is better, but.. costly. Usually reserved for that one perfection job, or a project that's got mega bucks in it. The guy who's done my sandblasting in the past (engine parts mostly) has a garage full of A frames, cars that have over $100,000 dumped into them here in the South. The sheet metal results are impressive, but again, don't know if you can afford it, or need it for that matter.

But you threw a red flag with tri stage paint. Look up the 2000 Corvette Magnetic Red. Same system. You basically lay a colored primer, and then a flake/pearl coat with a huge binder content (its translucent), and then a clear coat to seal. It's actually harder to lay than candy paints, because the middle binder coat has to be absolutely uniform, or else you get ghosting and other anomalies. I don't recommend it. Not your first spray. You'll fuck it up. If you really want tri stage, pay someone. Stick to simple systems, or else you'll be throwing money away, and time.

I know you and Ohio want a nice classy finish, but painting is art, not a dirty job to get over with. If you want something special, save and pay someone. I personally feel, that if I wanted to do another car to the same quality as I painted my Fiero, I would pay someone $5000-6000 before taking it on again. It really was that much back breaking work. If you use a complicated system first try, you WILL fail, Will.

Lemme know if I missed something.
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Re: Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swa

Post by Emc209i »

The Dark Side of Will wrote:I would appreciate some input from EMC on this...

East coast humidity is starting to take its toll. I can see flash rust on the bare metal through the cracks in the lacquer.
This means I need to do at least some of the body and paint work up front in order to protect the steel from rust while I complete the mechanical work. Paint before wrenches is generally not advised, but it appears to be necessary in this case.
I just found this.

The media of choice here would probably be soda, maybe something slightly more abrasive on the rust, but I think soda blasting would probably take most of it off. It's actually a gentle process that leaves a really smooth finish. You'll still have to block the flat surfaces, but soda won't leave pits that will need to be filled with primer.

Here's a good example of what the metal looks like after a little soda:

Image

It will be absolutely necessary to seal the metal afterwards. Lots of people like using primer long term, but remember that it's easy to bump into it while you're working around it, and if any metal's exposed, it has to be touched up. So most people like using rattle can primer for quick touch up when the nick it. Problem with that is that you have to sand all the cheap aerosol can primer off when you're done.

If it were me... I'd try to get the engine swap done in the next few months and let the rust do its thing. It doesn't sound that bad, and its surprising how well soda repairs surface rust. I don't know what your time frame is though. If you're going to be dinking around with this car for years, better to get it out of the way.

Post a picture of the areas you're looking at.

The more I think about it, soda blasting might be worth the cost to get all of that cracked old paint off.
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Re: Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swa

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Emc209i wrote: I don't recommend it. Not your first spray. You'll fuck it up. If you really want tri stage, pay someone. Stick to simple systems, or else you'll be throwing money away, and time.
*I* will not be spraying this.
I've received an estimate for $7200 soup to nuts. That includes disassembly and sand blasting. I'm expecting to do the disassembly and then deliver the car to him.

*If* I can have the shell e-coated, I'm thinking I will E-coat *FIRST*, then do the welding for the powertrain swap and apply the undercoating myself, then deliver it to him for paint.
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Re: Project Stupid Ferrari (Formerly: Another Awesome V8 swa

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

Emc209i wrote:
I know you and Ohio want a nice classy finish, but painting is art, not a dirty job to get over with. If you want something special, save and pay someone. I personally feel, that if I wanted to do another car to the same quality as I painted my Fiero, I would pay someone $5000-6000 before taking it on again. It really was that much back breaking work. If you use a complicated system first try, you WILL fail, Will.
FWIW, my 3800 fiero is the only car I'm willing to "give painting a shot" on. The car isn't valuable, and I put it together. It's not a show car, and I don't intend to create one accidentally by painting it. It however it being made out of 3 different colors of body panels is affecting my desire to be seen in it, so it languishes in my garage.

I fully understand the cost of paint work, which I why I buy cars that have good paint and mechanical defects because paint jobs that are up to my standards typically ruin any chance of profit in the car down the road. I've seen plenty of paint jobs on customer cars that range from $900 to one that was $38,000. Seems like $5-$20k is where the good work gets done. I've seen some decent stuff under $5k but as the price falls so does the amount of labor, and it seems the first place painters skimp is dis assembly. Nothing is more disappointing than a flawless coat of paint... with a shit-ton of tape lines around all the windows. The $38k job was on a million dollar car so that included all kinds of absurd dis assembly and whatnot.

$7,200 is a lot of money Will, but potentially worth it. Can you see some of his completed work? I'd imagine that number will fall when you remove the trim yourself. When we have customer cars painted we go as far to remove all the glass from the car. I'd recommend that. But I guess if you're having it dipped it'll be about as bare as bare gets. And when they paint it everything will be blue so the car will almost seem like blue was the factory color since all the jambs, nooks, and crannies will be the right color.
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