V8 AWD Mercedes W201 190E

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CincinnatiFiero
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V8 AWD Mercedes W201 190E

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

Very cool, I'm mixed on VW diesels, they are the cheapest diesels, and they do really well on fuel. However all of my friends with newer TDIs have had lots more problems than the CDI and Bluetec Benzes. Especially guys who bought the Pump Deuse motors, but that's sort of exceptional.

BMW has a 320d out here now don't they? Or a 328d? Something like that. What they should have done from the beginning. 335d was a great car, 430ish TQ, more than an M5. But they all showed up allocated to dealers loaded up with options, and it was the biggest most powerful diesel BMW had in a I6. So they were close to $60,000 and thirsty, they didn't crack 40mpg did they?

On the old school front, it turns out Mercedes sold a decent number of W124 4matic diesels. 2.5L 5cyls and 3.0L 6cyls. Turbo and non. So a front oil pan for a 602 or 603 diesel with the provisions for the front diff exists. The question is getting a 717.4XX 5speed between the motor and the transfer case. I'm still thinging about the feasability of this. I don't have the skills necessary to come up with a way to connect the transfer case to the back of the manual. I've been keeping my eye out of a 4matic in the junkyard so I could snag some bits to at least think about this.

Early Euro-Spec G wagons with manual transmissions used a standard manual gearbox with a short shaft to the transfer case which was mounted solid in the center of the frame. 4, 5, and 6 cyl engines sit different amounts forward and backward in the engine bay, so the length of the transfer case to gearbox shaft varied with the motor. They are not all that big, but I don't think fitting a 2 range transfer case under an E class is feasable. But if it were it would make the transfercase full mechanical, the 4matic used a viscous coupling like mid 90s Jeeps (thanks magna steyr).

I don't know if Steven and Will are stilling thinking this through, but it was a good time killer at the office to consider it.

Yes the 4matic 1 system uses a really wacky front coil spring with one elongated coil to clear the front axle.
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This adapter replaces the tailhousing on the 722.3 automatic transmission and bolts to the transfer case on the other side
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V8 AWD Mercedes W201 190E

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Awesome.

I'll have to figure out how to build an AWD V8 190E when I get Bad Idea running.
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Re: AWD Diesel Wagon /w Manual Trans in the US

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

Rusty W210 E430 4matics litter the Midwest for $2500. W210s used what magna steyr called "4matic-2" to differntiate from the problematic 4matic in the W124s. The 4.3 V8 is an M113. The M113 is the basis for the 354hp 5.5L W210 E55, early W220 S55, W163 ML55, early G55 etc. The 4matic oil pan should just bolt to the bottom of the AMG motor.

I've seen an M119 DOHC 4.2 stuffed into a W201 before so it will work, the M113 is a SOHC 3V afaik. W201s use W124 control arms installed backwards. Spindles may be the same, considering the wheel bearings, rotors, and calipers interchange id imagine they are the same.

So W124 4matic front suspension, W210 4matic running gear, and an AMG tuned M113. If you don't mind an auto like me, this is probably really doable.

Edit, turns out the 55K's are also M113 based, so instead of 354HP, you can go 469-510HP with the factory blown version.
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Re: AWD Diesel Wagon /w Manual Trans in the US

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Dammit... don't tell me that.

I'd really like a stick in such a car, but Mercedes autos are about the best in the world, so if you have to have an automatic, a Merc is the one to have.

Edit: "W201" is a typo, right?
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Re: AWD Diesel Wagon /w Manual Trans in the US

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

W201 is the chassis number for 190s.

W201s used W124 control arms installed backwards and I have seen a 190 with an M119 V8 swap, so I don't think there is a typo in there unless I'm missing something


You should drive an AMG speed shift car, its an automatic with a torque converter but it certainly does not suck.
A performance feature set for the Mercedes-Benz transmissions, which includes manual mode, active downshifting. When cornering at high speed, the transmission maintains the same gear above a certain lateral acceleration level. It can also automatically downshift before overtaking.
AMG Speedshift (2002-)
A version with mechanical lock-up of the torque converter from first gear, steering-wheel-mounted shifter. AMG SPEEDSHIFT is also used in 7G-TRONIC transmission.[6]
Speedshift learns, the more aggressive you drive the more aggressive you shift. Its really easy to reset the system in the parking lot and teach the car to drive aggressively that day.

The electronics integration is the bitch. 4matic is not full time so you'd need to retrofit the w210 speed sensors into the w201. W201s and w124 (excluding ASR cars) only have one rear abs sensor and it is in the differential. However with the increased power you'd want to swap to the bigger W210 diff anyway but you'd need to mount up the rear individual rear wheel speed sensors and come up with trigger wheels. All the cars use multi-link rear suspension so with custom links putting 210 rear hubs on a 201 rear subframe probably won't be too bad. Then you get to make adjustable rear links which you'd want anyway.
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Re: AWD Diesel Wagon /w Manual Trans in the US

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Yeah, systems integration would be tough in that one.
Did the ASR cars have dual rear wheel speed sensors? I assume that's traction and/or stability control (My E34's traction control was called ASR). Were there W201's built with ASR, or did you mean that it was an option only on the W124's?

I was wondering about using the 722 automatic which you've praised before. I could get into a ratchet shifter/hybrid valve body combo in which D was fully automatic, but L, 2 & 3 would be fully manual.

Converter lockup is another important consideration. I'd rather be in a lower gear with the converter locked than a higher gear with the converter unlocked. I'm working through that on my dad's Suburban right now. Tunercat claims to be able to control 2nd gear lockup, but turning that feature on doesn't cause it to lock up in 2nd. LT1 Edit doesn't know anything about 2nd gear lockup. The electric, vice hydraulic, lockup is a very handy feature, if you can get the electronics to run it.

What was Magna's designation for the 4-matic 1 T-case? Maybe there's something swappable that's more reliable and less expensive to fix. I'm spoiled by that aspect of the AMC/Jeep T-cases.
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Re: AWD Diesel Wagon /w Manual Trans in the US

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

I'm on my phone, I will reply at length from my compute later.


I've never seen a W201 with ASR, however my 1990 euro spec 190E has an ASR light built into the cluster, but my car is not equipped with ASR. So maybe in Europe there are ASR 190s but I've never seen one in the US. ASR is more common on V8 E420s 94-95 and 500Es but it was optional on 300Es and E320s. I don't know for sure but I've never seen a first gen 86-89 124 ASR so at the earliest ASR came out in 1990. ASR works by using the abs pump to grab the spinning wheel and forcing the open diff to turn the wheel with traction.


I praise the 722.3 and the 722.6. The 722.1 and 722.2 are much earlier, seem to be reliable but that wouldn't ever bolt to a motor that would be relevant to you. 722.4 is a 722.3 in a narrow case for 190s and 2.6L W124s, and weaker. 722.5 is a mechanical 4speed 722.3 with an electronic overdrive unit and they suck, they lose overdrive all the time, they only made it like 2 years. 722.6 is very good if you change the fluid. Mercedes on the .6 and the Chrysler NAG-1 played with the idea of "lifetime fill" trans fluid... And it ended in tears. Mercedes revised the maintenance books later and said change the trans fluid every other year. When the 7speeds came out Mercedes kept using the 722.6 in the V12 cars, AMGs, and maybachs because there are pretty stout versions out there. In fact guys rebuild NAG-1s in SRT and hemi Chrysler cars with AMG .6 internals.

If you want to build a bad ass .3 you can use V12 clutch packs in any .3 and there are even Kevlar clutches available.
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Re: AWD Diesel Wagon /w Manual Trans in the US

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

Don't know why I forgot about this. The M112 3.2 v6 SLK320 and Chrysler crossfire were offered with a 6speed manual. I've seen crossfire guys swap 5.0L M113s from like an S500 into a 6speed crossfire.

I don't know for a fact that all M113s have the same bell housing but I am fairy sure they are. So a 6speed modern V8 W201 is a possibility. Then the question of getting a transfer case bolted to the back of that becomes a question again. But its possibly another piece of the puzzle.
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Re: AWD Diesel Wagon /w Manual Trans in the US

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Wow... and www.car-parts.com shows those as low as $350ish... Nice.
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Re: AWD Diesel Wagon /w Manual Trans in the US

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

This is a 4matic-2 diagram from a 2002 E430 4Matic as it adapts to the 722.6. So the transfer case in 4matic-2 is also a separate piece.

I guess we are having two conversations here, using 4matic-1 to make an OM60x diesel AWD manual wagon. And using 4matic-2 to make a V8 6speed AWD 190E.

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Re: AWD Diesel Wagon /w Manual Trans in the US

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

CincinnatiFiero wrote:Don't know why I forgot about this. The M112 3.2 v6 SLK320 and Chrysler crossfire were offered with a 6speed manual. I've seen crossfire guys swap 5.0L M113s from like an S500 into a 6speed crossfire.

I don't know for a fact that all M113s have the same bell housing but I am fairy sure they are. So a 6speed modern V8 W201 is a possibility. Then the question of getting a transfer case bolted to the back of that becomes a question again. But its possibly another piece of the puzzle.
That transmission is the NSG-370. It was used in Jeeps as well as the CrossFire and can accept a T-case.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_N ... ansmission
http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/nsg370.htm

However, as the 6th gear is 0.84, I quickly run into the same problem I had with Bad Idea... I'd need really tall diff gears to match the transmission ratios. Any idea what's available for a V8 4Matic front end?
Novak says the Jeep version has the classic 23 spline output.

Photos: http://jeephorizons.com/news/nsg370.html
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep-har ... sg370.html
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Re: AWD Diesel Wagon /w Manual Trans in the US

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

CincinnatiFiero wrote:This is a 4matic-2 diagram from a 2002 E430 4Matic as it adapts to the 722.6. So the transfer case in 4matic-2 is also a separate piece.

I guess we are having two conversations here, using 4matic-1 to make an OM60x diesel AWD manual wagon. And using 4matic-2 to make a V8 6speed AWD 190E.

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I split the topics.

I guess I should go check out http://www.mbpartsworld.com to take a look at some of these diagrams you post. http://www.realoem.com has been absolutely invaluable in my Bad Idea BMW build.
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Re: V8 AWD Mercedes W201 190E

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

Mbpartsworld is easy and convenient with a couple draw backs, no euro diagrams, not all the diagrams, prices are quoted at retail, and they list some NLA parts as available.

The whole Mercedes electronic parts catalogue is online posted my MB USA, its java based and I struggling to make it work on my laptop though.

http://epc.startekinfo.com/epc/
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Re: V8 AWD Mercedes W201 190E

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

CincinnatiFiero wrote:Mbpartsworld is easy and convenient with a couple draw backs, no euro diagrams, not all the diagrams, prices are quoted at retail, and they list some NLA parts as available.

The whole Mercedes electronic parts catalogue is online posted my MB USA, its java based and I struggling to make it work on my laptop though.

http://epc.startekinfo.com/epc/

Awesome!
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Re: V8 AWD Mercedes W201 190E

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

Something I was unaware of until just now.

4-matic - 1 in the W124s is a rear wheel drive car, that in a slip can transfer up to 35% of the power to the front wheels through the viscous coupling.

4-matic -2 in the W210 is a full time all wheel drive 35/65 split. It has open differentials and uses an ASR like system to grab spinning wheels to make the open diffs turn the wheel with traction.

A cool system was ASD which was only offered on 2WD Diesels that I am aware of. It used a hydraulic pump on the motor like the car with the hydraulic suspensions. When you lose traction hydraulic fluid is sent to the rear diff and it 100% locks like an air locker. It remains locked until I beleive 15mph when it unlocks, and beyond that it is just an XX% Limited Slip, I *think* its helical, but I really don't know. I don't think they had clutch packs in addition to the locker. My 350SDL had it, but I never drove that car in snow or rain, so I have no idea how well it worked.
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Re: V8 AWD Mercedes W201 190E

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

4matic-2 with the open diff sounds functionally identical to BMW's AWD in the E46 and later cars, pre-"X-Drive"

The E30 AWD used a fixed torque split ~35/65 with viscous center (ZF A95 T-case) and viscous rear.

The E34 AWD which wasn't imported to the US used a very similar T-case (ZF A110) which the same fixed torque split, but an electronically controlled clutch in lieu of the viscous coupling. It also used an actively controlled hydraulic clutch rear limited slip which piggy-backed its hydraulic power off the electrically pumped load leveling rear suspension. It sounds very similar to MB's system, except using an electric pump and accumulator instead of an engine driven pump. Here are the parts diagrams: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.do?m ... g=33&fg=50

The NSG-370 gearbox looks promising. How are the M112 3.2 and Mopar 3.7 related? Do they have the same bellhousing pattern?
I'm wondering if I'd need to snag a CrossFire transmission and a Jeep transmission and make one from two or if I can just use the Jeep trans...

The Jeep T-cases tend to be off-road and 4WD oriented, so I'll have to figure out an appropriate one for on-road performance car.

Also, the trans is rated for 272 ftlbs, so I should probably keep torque to 350 ftlbs or so... which means no supercharged AMG engines. I @$$ume the M119's do better N/A than the M113's? Do you know if the M113 4-matic oil pan will bolt up to the M119?

Of course... I need to get Bad Idea on the road before I do any of that.
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Re: V8 AWD Mercedes W201 190E

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

1999-2002 E55 and S55, and G55 until 04 I think. Is going to be a non supercharged 5.4L M113 making 354hp. That would be better than messing with an M119 out of an older car. M119 went away in the W210 in 1997 afaik. But stuck around in the S500 until 1999. The M119 is a DOHC engine. The M113 is a SOHC. I haven't measured them but the M113 looks smaller which would make for better packaging in the W201. And the M113 for sure bolts to the 4matic oil pan and the 6speed.


There are many variants of the M113. 4.3, 5.0, and 5.4. Supercharged and non.
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Re: V8 AWD Mercedes W201 190E

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

CincinnatiFiero wrote: The M119 is a DOHC engine. The M113 is a SOHC.
That's why I was asking... I was under the impression that the M113 port flow wasn't as good as the M119's. Port flow, of course, is what drives N/A power.
Around the late '90's, early 2000's, several manufacturers (including GM with the Northstar) deliberately compromised the size of exhaust ports relative to the previous generation of engine in order to improve catalyst light-off. I was under the impression that MB switched from DOHC 4V to SOHC 3V for this reason. Improvements in catalyst technology meant that by the mid/late-2000's larger better flowing ports were coming back, and the 6.2 came out :good:
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Re: V8 AWD Mercedes W201 190E

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

I was unaware of that.

As far as I know the M119 bellhousing is specific to the M119. It might be the same as the M120 v120 and the older M117 alloy block but as none of those came in stick or 4matic that does you no good.

AMG made 5.0L and 6.0L variants of the M119 but they were not sold in the US, the E50 and E60 AMG. There are some 6.0 Renntech M119s, like the E60RS.
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Re: V8 AWD Mercedes W201 190E

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Ok. Thanks for the info on the bellhousings. I'd run across mention of the E50 and E60, but couldn't find much info.

Some of the things I've seen about modern MB 4matic hardware shows a right hand drop, but the image you posted above shows a left hand drop. Was 4matic-1 left hand and 4matic-2 right hand, or is 4matic-2 also left and there's a 3rd generation of equipment that's right hand drop?
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