Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

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The Dark Side of Will
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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Series8217 wrote:
ericjon262 wrote:how about Suburbans or Excursions? both available 2wd/4wd, diesel, gas, Suburbans came with manuals in the past if you dig that, a conversion wouldn't be hard either. and a 3/4 ton will tow pretty well too.

leaves money in the budget for custom stuff too...


http://www.ebay.com/itm/GMC-Suburban-25 ... ars_Trucks

If I were going the suburban route though, I would try and find a mint 73-91, they're tougher, already have a solid front axle, and look way better.
Not enough towing capacity :-/

If It's going to tow less than 10,000 pounds, I don't see any better choice than a Cayenne. A Cayenne will tow 7700 and meets all other requirements. Alternative choices will need to be able to make up for the lack of luxury and handling by allowing me to tow two cars :-)

EDIT: Didn't realize the Excursions came with the 7.3L Diesel. Apparently they have an 10,000 lb towing capacity in that configuration. Interesting idea. How do they do off road? Besides the major loss in functionality compared to a cargo van body, they do have a 2,000 lb lower GCWR, but that may still be OK.
Something like this right? http://www.carsforsale.com/used-cars-fo ... -225722425

Suburbans are 1/2 & 3/4 ton trucks. I *thought* they had plenty of towing capacity... the 2WD ones have a 10.5" 4 bolt with full floating axles available, but that may be with a specific towing package. I *thought* the 4WD ones would be similar. GM never built Duramax Suburbans due again to the size of the Allison.
I helped ALLTRBO move from OK to MD using my dad's '90 Suburban. We pulled a U-haul car trailer with '96 Talon packed with stuff and there was a bunch of stuff in the truck as well. We guesstimated we were grossing 12.5k, which is towing about 6500 lbs. I don't remember what the GCWR for the truck is right off, though.

Excursions are 1 ton trucks (as Eric said, based on the F-350 chassis) and are available with all powertrains you can find under an F350. Yes, they do have 7.3 Powerstrokes, Dana 60 fronts and either D60 or 14 bolt rear ends.

My private security detail in Iraq used armored Land Cruisers and Excursions. They said that the armored Excursions weighed 14,000 lbs. That obviously has nothing to do with the towing or GVW ratings, but is interesting trivia. The trucks are tough.

I never understood why the company that did the armor conversions didn't do vans (Or maybe they did, but the security operators liked the SUV's better...?)... When you have to triage a guy with multiple bullet wounds inside the vehicle while the driver's high-tailing it out of the ambush zone, you want as much space to work in as possible. Due to better packaging, a big van has about the same footprint in traffic as an Excursion, but a lot more interior space.
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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

Post by ericjon262 »

some of the 'burbans were offered in 1 ton as well, but only in 2wd. converting wouldn't be too hard.
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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

Technically an excursion is a 3/4 ton truck, and so would an E250 obviously but looking at the owners manual in my F250 the vans and the excursions have dramatically lower towing capacities. I don't if its since they already have more weight over the rear axle they would sag dangerously far with higher tongue weights.


Mercedes GL350 diesel has been out several years now, long enough to depreciate heavily and has a 7,500 lb towing capacity. Audi Q7 diesel is 6,600 lbs. Both of those trucks have longer wheelbases than the X5 or Cayenne and will tow better. I guess I'm spoiled towing in a crew cab, 8' bed truck but I like the long wheelbase out on the highway.
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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

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CincinnatiFiero wrote: Mercedes GL350 diesel has been out several years now, long enough to depreciate heavily and has a 7,500 lb towing capacity. Audi Q7 diesel is 6,600 lbs. Both of those trucks have longer wheelbases than the X5 or Cayenne and will tow better. I guess I'm spoiled towing in a crew cab, 8' bed truck but I like the long wheelbase out on the highway.
GL350 diesels are almost 3 times my budget. No thanks..

The Q7 is on the same platform as the Cayenne and has less rated towing capacity. I think it's because the GCVR is the same but the truck itself weighs more. I wasn't aware that they had a 4-inch longer wheelbase. That's interesting. Must be for rear seat passenger room. Not too enthused about the Audi or VW powertrain options or build quality though. The Porsche is unique among the PL71 platform vehicles in that the final assembly is performed by Porsche at a different plant. Reliability and build quality are reportedly much better than the others.
CincinnatiFiero wrote:Technically an excursion is a 3/4 ton truck, and so would an E250 obviously but looking at the owners manual in my F250 the vans and the excursions have dramatically lower towing capacities. I don't if its since they already have more weight over the rear axle they would sag dangerously far with higher tongue weights.
AFAIK the vans all have smaller transmissions and diffs because of the lower chassis and body height. Same reason you couldn't get an Allison in a Duramax van.
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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

That's the same reason you can't get a duramax suburban.

Non sport range rovers had a 7,700 capacity as well, could pick up like an 03-04 when they were the body after the P38 but had BMW 4.4s.
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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

Post by ericjon262 »

honestly, as far as the budget goes, I feel like your best bet would be an Excursion. and I would bet parts (both stock replacement and aftermarket) way less expensive compared to some of the other vehicles that have been mentioned. Also, if you don't feel like fixing something, it's alot easier to take a Ford in for maintenance than some of the others.
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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

Post by Series8217 »

CincinnatiFiero wrote: Non sport range rovers had a 7,700 capacity as well, could pick up like an 03-04 when they were the body after the P38 but had BMW 4.4s.
Yeah, that's at the top of my list for direct alternatives to the Cayenne (see my original post). I like the styling too. Just concerned about the reliability. I don't know anyone who has one or has experience with the common issues. Do you?
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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

Most of my RR knowledge is the old county's. The 03-13 or however long they kept the basic style is a really nice looking truck.

The biggest issue on them is the air suspension, however that's the case with every other truck you've mentioned pretty much.
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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

Post by Series8217 »

CincinnatiFiero wrote:Most of my RR knowledge is the old county's. The 03-13 or however long they kept the basic style is a really nice looking truck.

The biggest issue on them is the air suspension, however that's the case with every other truck you've mentioned pretty much.
Based on my research and from talking to some Porsche techs I know, there are no common issues with the air suspension on the Cayenne (presumably the Touareg is the same). Apparently it is quite robust. The compressors can eventually fail but they are inexpensive to rebuilt -- the typical parts are less than $200. If I wasn't going to be towing I'd be fine with just a set of good steel-spring coilovers, but I'd like to have the auto leveling functionality for tow purposes. It would be nice to lower it for the street too..
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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

Post by CincinnatiFiero »

I like air suspension, its just always problematic, but when it works it is great. I have hydraulic suspension in my E-class wagon and a lot of people eliminate it, I spent the money to fix it and it makes for a really nice ride when hauling transmissions and heavy stuff.

Sounds like the Cayenne is the truck for you, one of my best friends recently graduated from Porsche school and is a tech at the local main dealer, I don't know if he could shed any additional light on anything you don't already know, but he seems like the Cayennes. Its the boxters he is usually suggesting get scrapped lol.
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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

Post by Series8217 »

At this point its between the Cayenne and a 7.3 E-350 with a 4x4 conversion. I found an E-350 up near where I'm going to be over labor day weekend, so if it's still available I will check it out.

The Excursion offers increased towing capacity over the Cayenne but all other factors (road handling, luxury, acceleration, etc) -- besides price -- are worse. if I move to a real "truck" like that I want to have a ton of useful space -- which only a van body can provide. I will still take a look at some though; my friend is looking at getting one for towing a race car.
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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Because of how high they are from the factory, Excursions need some help with the rear suspension. A guy on Old Europe who's done (bought?) a GT40 rebody on a Fiero has a handle like "landyot" or "landjot" or something similar... he builds track rod setups to help the Excursion's on-road handling and towing stability.
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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

Post by Series8217 »

I'm most likely going to purchase a 2005 or 2006 BMW X5 4.4i (E53 chassis). The towing capacity is 6000 lbs (1000 less than the Cayenne) and it has less power than the Cayenne S, but with a base price of ~$6k less than the Cayenne, I can more than make up for the worse off-road handling by building a custom long-travel Bilstein suspension and getting some nice offroad tires and wheels. I also wouldn't feel as bad hooning the cheaper SUV around at RallyCross and on offroad trips. I would try to build the car to meet the SCCA RallyCross Prepared AWD class rules.

Just some inspiration:

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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

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Motul fluids are the best of the best, it's all I use in my motorcycle. The oil is green, and smells so good. Seriously good smelling oil. And did I mention it's green?
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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

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I have used Motul gear oil in my Outback but I don't remember it being green.
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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

That's a switch up...

I've seen some BAMF looking X5's. The drawback to using them off-road is lack of low range. Also, they destroy their front driveshaft splines over time, just like the E30 325iX's do.

I would not expect the E30 and E53 to have the same driveshaft splines, but this is a product that's available to repair worn splines in the e30: http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=276152

Also, if you decide you need more power, and S62 bolts right in :wink: but would require a good bit of wiring work and some systems integration for the data busses... but you've already mentioned hacking BMW busses.
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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

Post by Series8217 »

The Dark Side of Will wrote:That's a switch up...

I've seen some BAMF looking X5's. The drawback to using them off-road is lack of low range. Also, they destroy their front driveshaft splines over time, just like the E30 325iX's do.

I would not expect the E30 and E53 to have the same driveshaft splines, but this is a product that's available to repair worn splines in the e30: http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=276152

Also, if you decide you need more power, and S62 bolts right in :wink: but would require a good bit of wiring work and some systems integration for the data busses... but you've already mentioned hacking BMW busses.
It looks like the same fix has been done for the E53 shaft: http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-forums/ ... -3.html#26

An S62 would be a fun swap but they stopped building it in 2003 so it wouldn't be a smog-legal swap for an 05-06 X5.

I had some concern about the lack of low-range but with V8 torque and an automatic I think it's going to be OK. Certainly better than my anemic 2.5L Subaru with a long first gear and a manual transmission.
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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Series8217 wrote:Just some inspiration:

Image

FYI, the Quaife Part number for the rear of a Z3 1.9 goes into the front of an E53. It needs to be disassembled, the gears reversed and reassembled, though.
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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

Post by Series8217 »

X5 reliability does not look as good as I'd hoped.. the generation with the good AWD system has serious expensive engine problems related to valvetronic. So I'm probably going with a Cayenne S. I'd get a Turbo (same gas mileage as the S!) but the brakes are huge which will make it a lot harder to fit smaller wheels with off-road tires.
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Re: Nice SUV for driving, towing and off-road

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

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