Lets talk about E85

CincinnatiFiero · Post by **CincinnatiFiero** » Thu May 08, 2008 2:49 pm

If this has come up before, sorry. I have a dismantled 87 Fiero, and a 3800SC swap "kit" (motor, trans, pcm, harness) I bought from ed morad. I haven't begun to put the two together yet since I haven't picked up the motor yet. I got to thinking, since I haven't bought any of the odds and ends yet, what would it take to make the car flex-fuel-able. Is it possible? If so what do I need to do when I put the car together? stainless fuel lines? different gaskets?

I am just thinking about it right now, if its an extra couple hundred I would want to do it but if its way expensive I'll convert later. The ability to run close to 100 octane fuel in a boosted car is nice and if ethanol catches on more and is cheaper than gas (at $4/gallon everything is) I have that option.

Pyrthian · Post by **Pyrthian** » Thu May 08, 2008 4:01 pm

as far as I know - its just a matter of replacing all the rubber in the fuel system - like the o-rings

Series8217 · Post by **Series8217** » Thu May 08, 2008 4:09 pm

Pyrthian wrote:as far as I know - its just a matter of replacing all the rubber in the fuel system - like the o-rings

... and all the mild steel..
You need anodized aluminum and/or stainless steel for everything, including fuel rails, fuel lines, etc.
This includes the fuel tank, obviously.

lucky · Post by **lucky** » Fri May 09, 2008 12:14 am

a set of stock cats for a 03+ flex fuel taurus cost over a grand new. there's got to be more to running e85 (and passing emissions) than just converting your fuel system.

Series8217 · Post by **Series8217** » Fri May 09, 2008 12:31 am

There were flex fuel W-bodies in the early 90's. I've seen a decent amount of them in the junkyard. Look for the VIN W cars. They had the flex fuel 3.1.

lucky · Post by **lucky** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:03 am

maybe in cali you had flex fuels in the mid 90's, but I highly doubt I'd ever see one in a new england junkyard..besides the way scrap's been around here lately used cats are getting like 80 bucks at the scrapper. someone's literally going around Providence stealing cats off SUV's with a cordless sawzall.

CincinnatiFiero · Post by **CincinnatiFiero** » Fri May 09, 2008 2:34 pm

Has a E85 3800 been done? or an E85 fiero for that matter?

The Dark Side of Will · Tue May 13, 2008 8:40 am

Lots of guys run E85 in their turbo cars at the strip on entirely stock fuel systems. Sinister is/was doing an E85 corrosion test on a stock fuel pump.

ALLTRBO has run E85 in his Talon quite a bit with no problems. It ran 11.98 like that...

Pyrthian · Post by **Pyrthian** » Tue May 13, 2008 9:32 am

The Dark Side of Will wrote:Lots of guys run E85 in their turbo cars at the strip on entirely stock fuel systems. Sinister is/was doing an E85 corrosion test on a stock fuel pump.

ALLTRBO has run E85 in his Talon quite a bit with no problems. It ran 11.98 like that...

good point. many folk dont really need their setup to last 10 years.
how long does it take to eat thru a plain rubber o-ring...? I'd guess at least 2 years.

Unsafe At Any Speed · Post by **Unsafe At Any Speed** » Tue May 13, 2008 9:49 am

Most of the info that I've seen just talks about compensating for the extra fuel required. For e85 you need around 40% more fuel as you would with gasoline. So, you need to make sure that your fuel system can handle that (pump, injectors, etc) and tune to compensate. As for emissions testing... e85 burns a lot cleaner as it is. I've heard of people filling up with it just to go test, then draining it back out and putting gasoline back in.

CincinnatiFiero · Post by **CincinnatiFiero** » Tue May 13, 2008 2:38 pm

Is there a way to have a switch or piggy back system to make my car compensate and add extra fuel? I am running the 255lph walbro that is rated for 500HP in a grand national.

Kohburn · Post by **Kohburn** » Tue May 13, 2008 2:52 pm

if i remember right one of the issues with runnin alchohal is the O2 sensor - you need a wideband with programable output so you can scale it to what the computer wants to see because the stoic with ethonal isn't the same as gasoline.

The Dark Side of Will · Tue May 13, 2008 3:01 pm

Don't WBO2's actually measure lambda (Current AFR/Stoich AFR)?
I wouldn't think there would have to be any change in a WB setup, but I haven't looked very closely at how those sensors work.

Series8217 · Post by **Series8217** » Wed May 14, 2008 5:45 am

The Dark Side of Will wrote:Don't WBO2's actually measure lambda (Current AFR/Stoich AFR)?

Correct. How you convert that to "AFR" is up to your gauge or datalogger.

CincinnatiFiero · Post by **CincinnatiFiero** » Wed May 14, 2008 11:15 am

How much is stainless fuel line, or whatever it is that I need to safely run ethanol? I don't have time or money to do a wideband and the ecu stuff i need to go ethanol right now, but I may as well do some of the work.

Kohburn · Post by **Kohburn** » Wed May 14, 2008 1:45 pm

why the rush to do ethanol?

The Dark Side of Will · Wed May 14, 2008 2:24 pm

CincinnatiFiero wrote:How much is stainless fuel line, or whatever it is that I need to safely run ethanol? I don't have time or money to do a wideband and the ecu stuff which i need to go ethanol right now, but I may as well do some of the work.

Fixed.

I don't think you NEED special anything for ethanol, other than tune and injectors. After all, that's all that most of the E85 turbo guys change when they start running E85.

Mind you, most of those cars use gasoline for DD and only see E85 for time at the strip...

Nashco · Post by **Nashco** » Wed May 14, 2008 2:48 pm

The Dark Side of Will wrote:
CincinnatiFiero wrote:How much is stainless fuel line, or whatever it is that I need to safely run ethanol? I don't have time or money to do a wideband and the ecu stuff which i need to go ethanol right now, but I may as well do some of the work.
Fixed.

I don't think you NEED special anything for ethanol, other than tune and injectors. After all, that's all that most of the E85 turbo guys change when they start running E85.

Mind you, most of those cars use gasoline for DD and only see E85 for time at the strip...

I agree with Will, except that I'll add you might also need a better/higher flow fuel pump if yours is just adequate with gas. If you've got enough fuel flow (pump, injectors, tune) then you can run E85 for short periods of time with negligible issues otherwise. If you run E85 daily, then of course it could start to take its toll after a while, but it's not like it's going to melt through anything overnight.

Also, the oxygen sensor works just the same, you just need a lot more fuel (E85 vs. gas) to make the engine happy.

Bryce

CincinnatiFiero · Post by **CincinnatiFiero** » Sat May 17, 2008 12:07 am

I just wanted flex fuel possiblities and 100 octane at normal prices for the track.

The Dark Side of Will · Sat May 17, 2008 1:20 am

You don't want to run E85 anywhere but the strip. It costs the same as gasoline, but gives you only about 60% as much gas mileage as gasoline. You cost per mile is much higher with E85.
Thank congress for that. When they created E10 and mandated that all gasoline contain 10% ethanol, they effectively tied the price of ethanol to the price of gasoline. Ethanol is incapable of emerging as an indepedent quantity.