Which detour?

[Atilla the Fun]

Ok guys, I'm really torn. I love the idea of killing V8Archie's 377, and everyone else's SBC Fieros, using the lowly 305, but it's extra expense compared to doing a 350. If you vote for the 305, it's definitely getting a getrag 282, and 215/60R14 drag radials from BFG. It'll run an uncorrected 12.999 without nitrous. I can't predict the results from more displacement, but I'd expect a 10.999 on nitrous. so, now go vote in this poll, please.

[crzyone]

What is a 334?

I think big cube engines don't belong in fieros, so I'd never vote 383. That's all you need is more trani splitting torque.

[Aaron]

I disagree, I subscribe to the idea that more displacement can never hurt, it just places limits on how sane you want to drive. And IIRC, you were already wanting an auto transmission, which can be built to handle the torque no problem. Less displacement will offer no advantages, and limit your power. 400+ ftw.

[crzyone]

I also hate autos and would never consider one. Small cubes, big rpm, medium torque is going to he a hell of a lot more fun than a point and shoot 383.

[Aaron]

I too hate autos. I also hate SBCs. You can build a 383 to rev just as high as a 302, and it'll destroy the 302 under 4k. But to get a 383 to 7-8k, it would cost a bit more.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Scratch the 305 and do a 302. Use 6.385 BBC rods cut for 2.100 journals.

[Atilla the Fun]

I know there were votes for me to do the detour, when I polled that in VTW. So if you want to see it, which way would better answer the issue, in your minds, of what a SBC fiero should do but so far hasn't done? a 334 is a stroker 305. Terribly dumb, but just as do-able. I have the Vortec heads, and a set of 383 pistons, and a 355, all installable on the '84 cradle, since the LS is going on an '88 cradle.
BTW, I'm entering this in the local car show, the big one, it's on July 3.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Consider every one of your projects that you've ever told us about. Think about how many are complete and how many detours you've made.

Don't detour.

[befarrer]

The 335 would be neat, only because people would be like WTF is a 335?

What about that 4.3L V8 from the Caprice's of the 90's? I dont know what aftermarket or anything about them, but it would be different.

[Blue Shift]

Pick a good plan you've slept many a night on, and stay the course. I lost count of how many projects I started and never finished, and how much money that all equals.

I love the 383 in my boat, and it almost departs the water coming out of the hole, but I think big cubes/stroke is the wrong direction for a Fiero. You can only use so much torque before the tranny quits, so you might as well make a small, high revving engine. If not a 305 purely for humiliation factor, then a DZ302 sorta deal like Will just mentioned. Dunno how expensive a valvetrain for 8000 RPM use will be, but it'd be pretty cool. You'd stand out in the SBC crowd from everybody that orders the GMPP stock replacement/hi-po 350 or ZZ430 and pays to have it dumped in.

[Blue Shift]

The 335 would be neat, only because people would be like WTF is a 335?

What about that 4.3L V8 from the Caprice's of the 90's? I dont know what aftermarket or anything about them, but it would be different.

Wasn't that an LT1? I think I've seen a couple at the yard. An LT1 of any variety would probably make a pretty mean machine if built right.

[edit]: Wikipedia says that it (L99) was basically a 305 block version of the LT1, with a 3" stroke crank and 5.94" connecting rods... Wonder if it could be made to rev?

[crzyone]

[edit]: Wikipedia says that it (L99) was basically a 305 block version of the LT1, with a 3" stroke crank and 5.94" connecting rods... Wonder if it could be made to rev?

Yes it can, I read an article years ago where they built a "modern" 302 using that crank and a 350 LT1 block.

[Atilla the Fun]

If I do happen upon a good deal on a good used LT1, it's going into my S-10. Blue Shift is probably right about the torque of the 383, but I'm probably going to save my 17.8cc pistons for a 388.4 cube LT1, save my Vortec heads for a flattop-piston 305 or dished-piston 350, and do RHS 2.02/1.60"-valved Vortec heads milled 0.030", and 12cc-dished pistons and do a high-compression pump gas 388.4 for the Fiero, looking for maximum average HP. This will get me over 500 hp and 500 ft-lbs at sea level, and multiply that by 0.83 for the elevation of the dragstrip just outside of Salt Lake City, Utah. So that's over 415 peak HP into the trans. for less than the price of the 3.4L crate engine GM intends for early carbureted 2.8L S-10s. I'm looking for an average HP of nearly 350. That should be elevens up here without the nitrous.
And if that doesn't scatter the 282, there's nitrous. A 200 hp hit, on a progressive controller, so 100 hp at 2600 rpm, ramping up to 200 HP at 5400 rpm. I may need my F40-MT2 for that, but once I get the nitrous 388.4 down the dragstrip, the 388.4 is coming out, and the heavily modified L67 is going in. That's the finalized plan for this black '86 Fiero. That 388.4 will be sold, as there's nothing else I'd ever want to try it in.

[Blue Shift]

If I do happen upon a good deal on a good used LT1, it's going into my S-10. Blue Shift is probably right about the torque of the 383, but I'm probably going to save my 17.8cc pistons for a 388.4 cube LT1, save my Vortec heads for a flattop-piston 305 or dished-piston 350, and do RHS 2.02/1.60"-valved Vortec heads milled 0.030", and 12cc-dished pistons and do a high-compression pump gas 388.4 for the Fiero, looking for maximum average HP. This will get me over 500 hp and 500 ft-lbs at sea level, and multiply that by 0.83 for the elevation of the dragstrip just outside of Salt Lake City, Utah. So that's over 415 peak HP into the trans. for less than the price of the 3.4L crate engine GM intends for early carbureted 2.8L S-10s. I'm looking for an average HP of nearly 350. That should be elevens up here without the nitrous.
And if that doesn't scatter the 282, there's nitrous. A 200 hp hit, on a progressive controller, so 100 hp at 2600 rpm, ramping up to 200 HP at 5400 rpm. I may need my F40-MT2 for that, but once I get the nitrous 388.4 down the dragstrip, the 388.4 is coming out, and the heavily modified L67 is going in. That's the finalized plan for this black '86 Fiero. That 388.4 will be sold, as there's nothing else I'd ever want to try it in.

Cam the everliving shit out of it and run like 220+CC intake runner heads... I don't think you can hurt the bottom end enough to notice for Fiero use.

[Atilla the Fun]

I have yet to see ANY head of 215-225 cc, for the SBC, that can even equal the low-lift and mid-lift flow average of the RHS Vortec 2.02"-valve heads. worse, with ALL heads being flowed at 28", a 220 cc head on a 383 will never even flow what the bench reports, because there's just not a large enough cylinder under the port to get the same draw, or suction, as 28" , especially up here. and dyno testing bears it out. Up at 7000 rpm, port volume is as important as flow. But it's beyond annoying to drive a 377 at 7000 rpm on the street. 99% of my driving will be below 2000 rpm. Also, even with AFR's Hydra-Rev kit, COMP's beehive springs, titanium retainers, and so on, most of which kills the budget, the rpm is still limited to 6500. And for 500 HP, none of that is necessary. for acceptable MPG, the giant cam is totally unrealistic. Even with the medium cam I have in mind, I won't be able to make use of sixth gear in the F40-MT2 at legal speeds, the engine would surge because of the overlap. More overlap is something I hate with a passion. A choppy, racecar idle is not cool, it is really a bunch of lean misfires. It makes tuning difficult, especially if combined with carburetion and loud exhaust, and I passionately hate loud exhaust.
Switching to the RHS heads will let me use an intake lobe about 6 degrees smaller than GM truck Vortecs, and still reach the HP goal. even if I don't change the lobe separation angle, that alone still gives me 3 degrees less overlap. Now, to be sure of just barely passing an emissions sniffer test, a 383 in an '86 model can have no more than 6 degrees of overlap at 0.050" with 1.5:1 rockers. With 1.6/1.5 or 1.5/1.6 it's 5 degrees, and with all 1.6 it's 4 degrees. That's it. The absolute maximum. And that's no plan for making power to 7000 rpm.
I'm expecting peak HP between 5500-6000 rpm, and peak TQ between 4000-4500 rpm.
No, if I have extra money, it's not going into 4340 rods and huge heads and a solid roller cam. It would go into an MSD or DUI ignition to help improve not just the high rpm, but also the idle.
This is the secret to the success of the LSx. In stock form, anyway. Not big peak HP, but good spark at all rpm, and a broad powerband.
So, if you're wanting to see a big-cam, big-head, big-rpm 383 in a Fiero, pull your boat engine, stick it in place of the DOHC 3.4L, and I'll spec you a COMP XE Street Roller that'll pull to 7000. Then copy Fieroguru's Old Europe thread for how to attach the F40, and for under $1500 you're in business. Wait, add another $800 for DSS level 4 axles. Then you're in business. You just can't drive it on the street in California. But it would be a fast race car.

[Blue Shift]

Oh, I didn't know you were going for good economy and emissions with it all. That'll certainly add to the humiliation factor. What state are you in, anyways?

I think my boat engine is on the edge of survival at 6000 WOT RPM as is. We got air once over a wake enough to unload the jet pump and it hit ~6500 RPM once, which was scary. It's only got 5100 series carbon steel I beam rods, and a cast stroker crank in it. It does have Keith Black forged step dish pistons, and a 4 bolt main block, and stainless full roller rockers, but still.

[Atilla the Fun]

Nonsense. I've had a true ZZ4 short block to 7000 rpm. Your parts are certainly good enough for repeated trips to 6500 at the drag strip. Even with a modest hit of nitrous. In fact, if you want more from your 383 while it is in your boat, then I'd still suggest you get a solid roller cam, COMP EndureX lifters, maybe change valvesprings, maybe change retainers, maybe change keepers, probably change pushrods, and a Super Victor MPEFI setup. Not necessarily with Edelbrock's electronics, but certainly the manifold, and with a controller that can pull spark timing at high rpm. No HEI dizzy can do that, not even MSD's best.
My first cam for my Fiero 383 (388.4) is looking to be a COMP 08-000-8, 3015/3037-112, 274/288 advertised, .537/.536" with 1.50:1. Ground on a reduced base circle to help clear the rod bolts. Pistons most definitely will be hypereutectic, hopefully with coated skirts, but maybe not, I haven't chosen yet. Rods are also undecided yet. The crank will be a cheap Chinese cast steel version. Even if it is from Scat.
I've never seen an Accel/Lingenfelter SuperRam in a Fiero, but I'm sure the TPiS MiniRam will fit. The Accel better matches my desires for this build, so I'll try to fit one at some point.