Calling Mr. Northstar (Will)...

[Series8217]

Heres my dumb ass, just taking credit for everyone elses shit.

http://www.monodax.com/forums/tunercat- ... k-cal.html

SubZero350 is Sinister Fiero's username over there.

[Sinister Fiero]

{irrelevant content}

http://www.monodax.com/forums/tunercat- ... k-cal.html

SubZero350 is Sinister Fiero's username over there.

Yup. SubZero350 was also the original user name I had on Old Europe years and years ago. I also have a few other usernames I have used on message boards I used to frequent in the past.

AJ didn't appear to be very forthcoming with the stock .bin he was using for the LS1 PCM to control the Northstar (at least not until I posted the Shelby cal), but he did mention the Shelby Series 1 Aurora used an LS1 PCM so I did some searching and found a VIN number. I plugged this into GM's TIS and bingo, they had a factory calibration for it. So I programmed a PCM here using my Tech2 and then read it using TunerCat OBD2. I posted it up over there in case anyone needed it. Don't really see what the big deal is. I didn't create it, I just did a little work and got it posted to the net so others could download it.

I can assure you that if I do a lot of work to get the Shelby Aurora cal to work with the Northstar, I probably won't just post that to the net for public download. Too many people are ripping off other people's work already and I've been a victim of this myself, several times. But hey, I don't lock my tunes out of the respect for the customer so they aren't forced to come back to me for changes so I guess that is what I get.

[darkhorizon]

But hey, I don't lock my tunes out of the respect for the customer so they aren't forced to come back to me for changes so I guess that is what I get.

Was that directed at me? The few bin files that came from you "look" stock to me, and I have typically just thrown them out or made a small change for a partial write. I wouldnt really call bumping timing and enabling full open loop "stealing" work. The reason I am suspecting you are pissed about this was in relation to a situation I had recently with one of your nutswingers, oh I mean customers, blaming me for "breaking" someones car (when was just the blamee's fault to begin with, and I had told him the possible problems, with the possible solutions, but he refused to listen to me. I turned out to be right, of course).

I have had my powertuner for 3 years or more now, and I think I have made a whole $150 off tuning over 20 cars, and all of that was just to compensate the time I spent tuning. If your pricing structure mandates that someone needs to come back to make a profit, then I would be a bit confused that you would not lock your PCM's. IMO selling tuning should be in direct relation to the time you have invested in it, and due to the fact that you charged roughly $40-50 an hour for a nearly bone stock file, I would say that the profit you made on that was well in line with the service rendered.

In all honesty, with the fact that you can buy a powertuner, tune your car for a few months, then turn around and sell it for the SAME price that you can buy it for, or possibly even a bit of a profit, I would be glad that people are still willing to pay $40-50+ an hour for bench tuning.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Will, I've been reading on a couple of forums where AJ says he has obtained the ability to tune Northstars using the LS1 PCM. In one of those threads, he mentioned that the Shelby Series 1 Aurora 4.0 used an LS1 PCM. So I did some digging and found a VIN number on the net for a Shelby Series 1 car. I plugged that VIN number into GM SPS and found a factory GM calibration made by GM for the Series 1 Aurora 4.0. So I programmed an LS1 computer I had here with it using my Tech2 and attempted to read it with my Tunercat OBD2 program. Success! I can read/program this cal and edit the contents. This appears to be a 1999 calibration using the 09354896 LS1 PCM (99 LS1). I also have wiring diagrams from GM for the Shelby Series 1 4.0 Aurora V8 engine (which was rated at 320hp and was only used with a manual transmission).

SO, my question to you is: What year range of Northstar V8 engines used the same type of crank trigger wheels and ignition system components as the 99 Aurora V8 engine?

-ryan

I bought a PCM from Ryan with this program. I will be integrating it to the car later in the summer and reporting on effectiveness and performance. I'll include dyno sheets to showcase what it can do compared to the OBDI Northstar PCM I'm using now.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Interesting...

http://www.fiero.com/forum/Forum2/HTML/0 ... .html#p221

I am completely unsurprised that AJ couldn't get Dave's car running right, but I thought Wester would have been able to.

Doesn't scare me.

[Shaun41178(2)]

Maybe there is something wrong with the motor. The punisher used the holley 950, spent time tuning it himself, then went and had it dyno tuned and he says he could never realy get it right.

Turned out one of the headgaskets was screwed.

[Sinister Fiero]

The guy said he took it to a tuning outfit that tunes LS's and other stuff on a DYNO. There's two big problems right there. Sure, they may be familiar with the PCM and tuning aspect of it, but they probably know nothing about Northstars; and their LS tuning logic probably doesn't apply either.

Also, and more importantly, a dyno can never be a substitute for the street when it comes to tuning part throttle drivability. I don't care what kind of dyno it is or who is doing the tuning. The car will never act the same on the dyno as it does on the street (nor will it encounter the same operating conditions). So the guys doing the dyno tuning may have never encountered the stalling issue, or if they did, it wasn't consistent enough for them to address and correct the problem.

I'm sure the guy is sore about paying 16 hours worth of dyno tuning labor, but that is no reason to throw the Shelby/LS PCM under the bus. And like Shaun said, for all we know he could have a mechanical problem with the engine; or maybe even a wiring or sensor issue. It is hard to say.

What I can say is I've had all kinds of cars brought to me that someone else tuned on or worked on. And 99.9% time, something wasn't done right by someone else that was causing the issues the owner was complaining about. I've even fixed stuff that Lingenfelter's screwed up in a tune before. Nobody is perfect.

I don't think Will should be scared either. I'm sure the first PCM tune I made for him isn't going to be without issues, but if he works with me thru this process and gets me the data I need, I bet we will get it running right. It just may require some patience.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I'm going to have WOT tuned locally... That's easy enough. I'll have to figure out how to log on the cheap to send you the info for part throttle tuning.

[Sinister Fiero]

I'm going to have WOT tuned locally... That's easy enough. I'll have to figure out how to log on the cheap to send you the info for part throttle tuning.

I wouldn't do the WOT tune until we iron out the idle and part throttle aspect of the tuning. That's because if we have to change any of the base fueling, it will affect fuel at WOT as well.

Check out http://www.obd-2.com/ if you want cheap. I don't know if it will datalog or not, so you should ask before you buy. I do know it does CASE-Learns.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I'm going to have WOT tuned locally... That's easy enough. I'll have to figure out how to log on the cheap to send you the info for part throttle tuning.

I wouldn't do the WOT tune until we iron out the idle and part throttle aspect of the tuning. That's because if we have to change any of the base fueling, it will affect fuel at WOT as well.

Check out http://www.obd-2.com/ if you want cheap. I don't know if it will datalog or not, so you should ask before you buy. I do know it does CASE-Learns.

I thought that with a MAF-based calibration, the MAF tables that specify what frequency = what airflow were adjusted. I understood that as long as the cylinder size & injector constant were right, then it was hard to screw up.

Am I wrong about this?
The Shelby program *IS* MAF based, right?

[Sinister Fiero]

I'm going to have WOT tuned locally... That's easy enough. I'll have to figure out how to log on the cheap to send you the info for part throttle tuning.

I wouldn't do the WOT tune until we iron out the idle and part throttle aspect of the tuning. That's because if we have to change any of the base fueling, it will affect fuel at WOT as well.

Check out http://www.obd-2.com/ if you want cheap. I don't know if it will datalog or not, so you should ask before you buy. I do know it does CASE-Learns.

I thought that with a MAF-based calibration, the MAF tables that specify what frequency = what airflow were adjusted. I understood that as long as the cylinder size & injector constant were right, then it was hard to screw up.

Am I wrong about this?
The Shelby program *IS* MAF based, right?

It is. And you are correct. But since we haven't looked at the fuel trims yet (since you don't have it running), we haven't determined if we will need to change the injector size constant or tweak the MAF calibration yet.

For example, let's say you get it running and overall you see the fuel trims favoring rich or lean by 10% no matter what the throttle position / engine load. In that case, rather than changing the entire MAF cal table by 10%, I would probably just change the injector size to correct it. I doubt we will encounter this though. I'm sure if the fuel trims are going to be off in your cal, they are going to be off by different amounts depending on engine load and it won't be linear. In which case we would need to tweak the MAF cal table values anyway.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I thought that with a MAF-based calibration, the MAF tables that specify what frequency = what airflow were adjusted. I understood that as long as the cylinder size & injector constant were right, then it was hard to screw up.

Am I wrong about this?
The Shelby program *IS* MAF based, right?

It is. And you are correct. But since we haven't looked at the fuel trims yet (since you don't have it running), we haven't determined if we will need to change the injector size constant or tweak the MAF calibration yet.

For example, let's say you get it running and overall you see the fuel trims favoring rich or lean by 10% no matter what the throttle position / engine load. In that case, rather than changing the entire MAF cal table by 10%, I would probably just change the injector size to correct it. I doubt we will encounter this though. I'm sure if the fuel trims are going to be off in your cal, they are going to be off by different amounts depending on engine load and it won't be linear. In which case we would need to tweak the MAF cal table values anyway.

Did I send you the flow sheet for my injectors?
If my injectors flow 19.2345 lbs/hr at test pressure/temperature, why would we set the injector constant for anything but 19.2345 for an engine running the same fuel pressure (fuel temp varies of course)?

I understand that it's *easier* to change the single injector constant than an entire table (does HPTuners not do batch processing? I've seen software for PowerFC's with the ability to bump the entire table up or down with one click), but I do not like knowingly plugging the wrong numbers into the ECU.

[Sinister Fiero]

Did I send you the flow sheet for my injectors?
If my injectors flow 19.2345 lbs/hr at test pressure/temperature, why would we set the injector constant for anything but 19.2345 for an engine running the same fuel pressure (fuel temp varies of course)?

I understand that it's *easier* to change the single injector constant than an entire table (does HPTuners not do batch processing? I've seen software for PowerFC's with the ability to bump the entire table up or down with one click), but I do not like knowingly plugging the wrong numbers into the ECU.

You did and I did set up the programming I made for you based on those injector flow numbers. But I was just making a statement about the way I sometimes do things in the tune. Remember these are just "numbers" stored in the PCM. Sometimes those numbers don't translate into real-world figures. To give you an example of this, take the early LS1 cars and the Vortec 5.7L truck engines - both used the exact same MAF sensor (same part number and everything). But if you look at the MAF tables between the two vehicles, they are very different. Why is that? I have seen this same thing done with other values in PCMs.

We don't need to change your injector constant if you don't want it changed. It isn't that big of a deal. Sorry I mentioned it.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Did I send you the flow sheet for my injectors?
If my injectors flow 19.2345 lbs/hr at test pressure/temperature, why would we set the injector constant for anything but 19.2345 for an engine running the same fuel pressure (fuel temp varies of course)?

I understand that it's *easier* to change the single injector constant than an entire table (does HPTuners not do batch processing? I've seen software for PowerFC's with the ability to bump the entire table up or down with one click), but I do not like knowingly plugging the wrong numbers into the ECU.

You did and I did set up the programming I made for you based on those injector flow numbers. But I was just making a statement about the way I sometimes do things in the tune. Remember these are just "numbers" stored in the PCM. Sometimes those numbers don't translate into real-world figures. To give you an example of this, take the early LS1 cars and the Vortec 5.7L truck engines - both used the exact same MAF sensor (same part number and everything). But if you look at the MAF tables between the two vehicles, they are very different. Why is that? I have seen this same thing done with other values in PCMs.

We don't need to change your injector constant if you don't want it changed. It isn't that big of a deal. Sorry I mentioned it.

Don't be sorry you mentioned it. It's good us to understand how we each think. Sometimes we just think differently.

I'm fine with adjusting the injector constant for fuel pressure or playing with the dead time numbers if we run into a situation where the same airflow gets different fueling at different points on the map; e.g. open throttle low RPM vs part throttle high RPM, where the difference is in the % of pulse width that's affected by dead time.

What I would like is numbers in the controller that reflect the physical system it's controlling. It's quite feasible to change the injector constant in lieu of the entire MAF table, and get into the habit of making similar substitutional changes because they're easy. What happens when I come to a problem that's caused by the way I lied to the computer? Or I come to a problem that's a result of the parameters not being "right", but I don't know where in the maze of lies the problem... lies?

[Sinister Fiero]

No worries. I just wanted to express that sometimes we don't always see reflections in the scan data that we see in the end result of the way the engine is running (ie: commanded AFR in PE and actual AFR coming out of the tailpipe). Ideally it would be nice to get those two numbers to jive, but sometimes it isn't possible without a ton of tuning work.

[Sinister Fiero]

Back to this guy's issue, there are SEVERAL idle control constants and tables in the 99 LS PCM/Shelby programming that can be adjusted:

Idle Control Parameters:

IAC Reset Park Position
Idle Throttle Area Scalar
Throttle Cracker Disable Speed
Throttle Cracker Enable Speed
Idle Adapt Enable Coolant Temp.
Idle Adapt Disable Coolant Temp.
IAC Startup Airflow Decay Rate - Drive
IAC Startup Airflow Decay Rate - P/N
Default IAC Correction - Single Fan On
Default IAC Correction -Multiple Fans On
Min. IAC Offset Correction - A/C On
Max. IAC Offset Correction - A/C On
IAC A/C Correction Filter Coeff.
Default Learned IAC Offset - A/C On
Min. IAC Correction - in Drive
Max. IAC Correction - in Drive
IAC Correction Filter Coeff. - In Drive
Default Learned IAC Offset - in Drive
Min. IAC Correction - in P/N
Max. IAC Correction - in P/N
IAC Correction Filter Coeff. - In P/N
Default Learned IAC Offset - in P/N
High Power Steering Pressure RPM Correct
Maximum Idle Airflow
Choke Flow Time
Max Desired Idle Effective Area
Throttle Follower %TPS Hysteresis
Start-up Engine RPM Under Speed Time
Start-up IAC PID Control Delay
Idle RPM Filter Coefficient - Light
Idle RPM Filter Coefficient - Heavy
Idle RPM Integral Deadband
Idle RPM Proportional Deadband

Idle Control Tables:

Target Idle RPM Vs. Coolant Temp.
IAC Park Position Air Flow Vs IAT
Idle Air Flow (gm/sec) Vs. Coolant Temp vs. Gear
Throttle Follower Air Flow Vs. %TPS
Throttle Follower Decay per 12.5 ms Vs. MPH Vs. Gear
Throttle Follower Decay Delay Vs. MPH (In Gear)
Throttle Follower Air Flow Decay Vs. MPH (In P/N)
Throttle Follower Decay Delay Vs. MPH (In P/N)
Throttle Cracker Airflow Decay Vs. Speed
Throttle Cracker Airflow Decay Delay Vs. Speed
Throttle Cracker Airflow (gm/sec) Vs. RPM Vs. Speed
Idle Overspeed Spark Advance Correction Vs RPM Error
Idle Underspeed Spark Advance Correction Vs RPM Error
IAC Breakaway Friction Decay Rate Vs Coolant Temp
IAC Initial Breakaway Friction Airflow Vs Coolant Temp.
IAC Breakaway Friction Decay Delay Vs Coolant Temp.
IAC Initial Startup Airflow Vs Coolant Temp. - in Drive
IAC Initial Startup Airflow Vs Coolant Temp. - in P/N
IAC Startup Airflow Decay Delay Vs Coolant Temp. - in Drive
IAC Startup Airflow Decay Delay Vs Coolant Temp. - in P/N
IAC Motor Steps Vs. Effective Area
Max Learned IAC Correction Vs. Coolant Temp.
Idle PID Derivative Correction - Decreasing RPM

Code: Select all

Idle PID Derivative Correction - Increasing RPM
Idle PID Integral Corr. (gm/sec) Vs Pos. RPM Error Vs Gear
Idle PID Integral Corr. (gm/sec) Vs Neg. RPM Error Vs Gear
Idle PID Prop. Corr. (gm/sec) Vs Pos. RPM Error Vs Gear
Idle PID Prop. Corr. (gm/sec) Vs Neg. RPM Error Vs Gear
[/size]

I find it hard to believe that having access to all of the above tables can't give us the ability to resolve a stalling issue.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I find it hard to believe that having access to all of the above tables can't give us the ability to resolve a stalling issue.

I am completely unsurprised that AJ couldn't get Dave's car running right,

[The Dark Side of Will]

Deciding if I should build harness adapters first in order get the bugs worked out, or just take the leap and do the complete install...

The complete install involves totally reworking the harness to go from interior PCM mounted in the stock Fiero location to under-hood PCM mounted near the "relay center" (fuel pump and A/C Comp relays). In addition to relocating the computer and rewiring for the new computer, I'd completely change the routing of the harness through the engine compartment to help keep it out of sight.

[Sinister Fiero]

The Shelby/LS PCM you got should fit in the stock Fiero ECM location without you needing to modify the center console - DEPENDING ON how much room your conversion plug-and-play harness takes up.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I don't have a center console in now, because the OBDI Northstar PCM won't fit in the same space as the Fiero ECM. Not having a center console while testing the new ECM is not a big deal.

However, since the LS1 ECM *is* capable of underhood mounting, why the heck not mount it there? In addition to simplifying the harness and having fewer wires going through the firewall, it would free up volume under the center console for wideband O2 sensor controllers, datalogging modules, J&S Safeguard, Racelogic (not all at once, but some of the things that have crossed my mind).