8217's E46 M3 - Stage 2 (V8 Swap)

[Series8217]

Ebay seller of the LS4 manifolds took his sweet time getting them shipped out, but they're on the way to Vorshlag now.

QFT.

And quit trolling my thread.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Don't ever use a mere bimmer to attack third-gen possibilities. Trying that just makes you look stupid.

Lol... And as far as the '80's and early '90's are concerned, an E28 or E34 M5 will eat a third gen alive, in a straight line and around corners.

[The Dark Side of Will]

but they're on the way to Vorshlag now.

Sweeet

[Series8217]

Will, you're just feeding the trolls..

[Emc209i]

Don't ever use a mere bimmer to attack third-gen possibilities. Trying that just makes you look stupid.

Don't ever use a mere Enzo to attack Fiero possibilities. Trying that just makes you look stupid.

[Opens Taco (Toca) Bell bag]Here Mormon, here boy. *whistles*[/Closes bag]

[The Dark Side of Will]

Will, you're just feeding the trolls..

There's a difference between feeding and baiting...

[Series8217]

Information on the changes from 2WD to AWD E46 cars....
http://www.e46fanatics.com/forum/attach ... 1257119324

I don't think it's practical to adapt the E46 AWD transfer to a T56.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Nobody wants the E46 T-case anyway.
I'm also amused that the document describing E46 AWD uses the www.realoem.com diagram of parts for the E53 V8.

The E30 T-case has a 33/66 torque split and viscous coupling limited slip device in the center diff.
The E34 T-case has a 33/66 torque split and a variable clutch controlled by a computer. The E34 was available with AWD in the 525iX that was <sigh> not sold in the US.
The E46 and all subsequent BMW AWD systems used until "X-Drive" had a fixed torque split, but *NO* limited slip device... totally open center diff (and front and rear, for that matter). They controlled wheel spin via the ABS/Stability control applying the brakes to a spinning wheel.

IOW, without the ABS/SC, the T-case sucks at teh AWD.

Good news is that a Quaife for the M42 Z3 will drop into the front end X5 diff. I can run a 33/66 T-case with VC from Silverado SS, Quaife front and open rear to encourage the car as much as possible to turn.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Information on the changes from 2WD to AWD E46 cars....
http://www.e46fanatics.com/forum/attach ... 1257119324

I don't think it's practical to adapt the E46 AWD transfer to a T56.

I was more wondering about the structural differences between the two bodies, rather than the differences between bolt-in parts. How hard would it be to build an AWD E46 M3, for example? Does the AWD hardware bolt into the M3 body after modifying the floorpan for the T-case? Are the front frame rails and strut towers different like they are on an E30? Would it be better to graft the M3 rear quarter/fenders onto an AWD car?

[Series8217]

The E46 and all subsequent BMW AWD systems used until "X-Drive" had a fixed torque split, but *NO* limited slip device... totally open center diff (and front and rear, for that matter). They controlled wheel spin via the ABS/Stability control applying the brakes to a spinning wheel.

That's not unusual for modern (2000+) AWD. Subaru VDC does the same thing. It works well for travel over snow, ice, dirt, mud, uneven surfaces, though I'm not sure how the driving dynamics are for high-performance cars on those surfaces or on tarmac. It depends on how fast the system responds to wheelspin. They're still putting torsen diffs in most AWD performance cars.

IOW, without the ABS/SC, the T-case sucks at teh AWD.

No big deal. AWD or not, I'm not building an E46 without leaving the ABS/SC intact.

[The Dark Side of Will]

E30 V8?
Buy my transmission!

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=230856

[The Dark Side of Will]

No big deal. AWD or not, I'm not building an E46 without leaving the ABS/SC intact.

No joke... pretty silly to get rid of it.

[Series8217]

I'm shopping for an E46 M3... I'm not ready to purchase yet (need to free up some space in the garage), but I'm keeping an eye on prices and availability. I'd like one in Oxford Green with no sunroof, black interior, and a 6MT (instead of the SMGII).

I'm planning to do suspension and aero upgrades, but keep the drivetrain relatively stock until the S54 requires expensive repair or when I have finished reverse-engineering the CAN bus protocol for the DSC. At that point I plan to sell the S54 drivetrain (engine, trans, diff), and put in an LS3/TR6060 or LS2/T56 with a Ford 8.8 IRS diff. LS3 or LSA manifolds seem to be the closest to fitting but will still likely require a custom steering shaft. I have to use OEM manifolds to make the swap emissions-compliant. To retain the ABS/DSC functionality, I plan to make an S54 ECU simulator which receives data from the LS* ECU's OBD II port or sensors, and put out the equivalent data on the CAN bus to keep the ABS/DSC computers happy. Should be a fun project.

I know Will is going to ask...

AWD?

I'll look into it once I have a V8 drivetrain on hand, but I'm not going to make it a goal. I will keep AWD in mind when I mount the motor (i.e. I'll put the axle centerline in the right spot relative to the oil pan), so that I could add it later if it's possible.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Why the 8.8?
BMW diffs are pretty strong... although the availability of numerically high gear ratios in the 210mm size is kind of sparse.

[Series8217]

Why the 8.8?
BMW diffs are pretty strong... although the availability of numerically high gear ratios in the 210mm size is kind of sparse.

The strength of the 8.8 and the availability of gear ratios are the main reasons. The 8.8 is well proven behind the torque of a V8. I doubt even the P60B40 (that's the V8 from the E46 M3 GTR ALMS cars) made more than 350 ft-lbs; that was only a 4.0L motor. There are also many available LSD options for the 8.8.

[The Dark Side of Will]

BMW's 188 mm unit is good for 350-400 HP with the large axles. The 210mm unit used with the 8's and 12's (as well as the E34 M5 and maybe the E46 M3) are supposedly good for 600+ and has a Quaife available... There were also factory posi LSD's for the 210. Lots of V8 swaps don't do a thing to the diff... Have you heard of anyone breaking a BMW unit?

http://www.metricmechanic.com/pdf/Differentials.pdf

However, the 8.8 has a MUCH better variety of gear ratios and limited slip devices.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Now that I think about it a bit more, I remember that there are 3.64 and 3.91 gearsets for the 210 diff...

Choice is yours, obviously... I'm just trying to make you aware of the options.

The 8.8's probably cheaper, even with the adapter kit.

[Series8217]

That pdf from Metric Mechanic is extremely useful. Thanks.

E46 M3 does use the 210mm diff. The 3.62 is the stock ratio.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I think the 850Csi also used 3.62 large case. The E34 M5 5 speed cars used 3.91's and then 3.73's. There are aftermarket 4+ ratios around. The parts are out there to work well with a T56 or TR6060.

Also, I've seen pics of the SMG hardware and it looks like it just bolts on to a standard 420G and actuates the same shift shaft you'd operate by hand via the shifter. It would be pretty slick to adapt that to a T56
http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E46/C ... parts_smg/

Do you think that you or an outfit like EFI Live could write a module for the GM code to allow the GM ECM to "speak" BMW CANBUS with just a reflash?

[CincinnatiFiero]

The SMG and "true manual" use the same transmission. Theoretically you could convert back and forth. The 420G has a problem with the spring that helps snap the gear stick back into neutral, the SMG cars have a problem where the SMG system panics and won't work, supposedly it's the same spring failure and the computer can't find neutral. According to my friend who is a BMW tech the SMG and manual even use the same clutch.