Speaking of Mercs...

[The Dark Side of Will]

500E: http://www.ronsusser.com/inventory.htm?id=21

Edit: Another: http://www.ronsusser.com/inventory.htm?id=784

[The Dark Side of Will]

Project for Cincinatti: http://www.ebay.com/itm/08-Mercedes-s63 ... 47&vxp=mtr

Another potential swap candidate: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Mercedes ... cc&vxp=mtr

[CincinnatiFiero]

500Es are very very cool, but at that money you can be in a W211 E55 Supercharged with 150 more hp, 8 piston brakes, electronic diff, etc.


I love me some 124s but I've never paid over $1000 for one and I don't see myself starting.

[The Dark Side of Will]

The proposition that "there's nothing more expensive than a cheap Mercedes" doesn't hold?

The fact that something newer is faster for the same money is something to influence a buyer's decision for any performance car. "If you want a faster Ferrari, buy one".

[CincinnatiFiero]

The 5.4 Supercharged certainly has more, more expensive parts to break. But the market is what the market is. Under 100k mile AMGs are falling under $20,000. The 500E has a collector status to it that people are willing to pay for, which is cool, just not for me. Unless I can buy one I can make money on.

The car to buy is a 1994/1995 W124 E420 (the 400E is the same car, the E420 just had the better headlights and hood) in my opinion. They have first gear start valve bodies, which 500Es don't. And they are still like 275hp. I have two friends who have picked up beautiful one owner 420s for around $5,000. They have like 2.24 gears from the factory, I don't know the numbers off hand but factory bolt in diffs in the 2.73-3.07 region are an easy swap in and really wake them up. They've got 2 mufflers from the factory, and with one removed they sound really nice. For $5-7k you can have a quick, and clean 420.

Since you like engine swaps.... the 5.0L M119 in the S500, CL500, and SL500 from the mid 90s is *supposedly* a bolt in operation. The very early like 1992 500 motor in cars other than the 500E still had KE-jet injection and have taller blocks, but the later multipoint 5.0s should be externally similar to the 4.2. 5.0s in the S500 are rated at a tick more power than the 500E and are easy pickin's under $1000.

Someone called me about a $600 400E that had overheated and there is a $500 5.0L on craigslist, but the 400E guy stopped returning my calls.

Later V8s are out of my realm on hands on expertise so don't take any of that as definitive. The M116/M117 3.8/4.2/4.5/5.0/5.6 is what I work on more, and own 2 of.

[The Dark Side of Will]

What did Merc use for manual transmissions?
Would any manual trans they ever built bolt to a V8?

[CincinnatiFiero]

Manual V8? In short, no.

Mercedes used Getrag transmissions.

On the older M116/M117 with iron blocks, like the M116 Euro 350 3.5L motor, the Euro M117 450 4.5, and the US M117 350/450 4.5 they have the same bell housings. There is a manual transmission that exists. It is a 4speed, I do not think there are any 5speed Getrags with V8 patterns. In the W113 280SL there are some mega-rare 5speeds, and in the W114 and W123 sedan/coupe/wagon there are some mega-rare 5speeds in M115/M130 4/6 cylinder gas, the M110 6cylinder gas, and in OM61x 4/5cylinder diesel patterns. However I've never seen a 5speed behind a mid 70s V8. A very good friend of mine has a 1974 450SLC euro high compression 4speed rally car. The manual makes it a very different car than my 350-4.5 automatic car. Back in these days the V8, gas inline motors, and diesels all had separate bell housings.

The later M116/M117 like the M116 380 3.8 and 420 4.2, or the M117 500 5.0 or 560 5.6 have alloy blocks with a different bolt pattern, there are no factory manual transmissions for those engines.

From this era (1984 for the W201, 1986 for the W124) on, the M102/M103/M104/M111 inline gas motors, and OM601/602/603/604/605/606 inline diesels have the same bell housing. So people take M102 190E 2.3 gasser manuals and put them behind 6 cylinder diesel 300s.

The 90s M119 4.2 and 5.0 was never built with a manual transmission.

I do not know for sure if the M119 and late M117 share a bell housing. If they do, there is a guy on the forum right now working on a T5 adapter for the alloy blocked M117 so people can make manual transmission 560SLs or 560SELs etc.

I have seen 2 manual transmission M119 500Es, one was Renntech and the other was Gemballa if I remember correctly, and one or both was a Porsche 928 based manual adapted.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Certain automatic transmissions in BMW's have separable bellhousings (ZF 4HP22, 4HP24 and 5HP24). I have a V8 5HP24 bellhousing to mate to a TR6060 for my Bad Idea project.

At my suggestion, this chap bought a 5HP24 bellhousing to mate up a Getrag 265 box: http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showpos ... tcount=295



Similar shenanigans have been played with the 4HP24 bellhousings for BMW V12's.

I know Mercedes builds their own automatics... Do they have any with separable bellhousings?

[CincinnatiFiero]

Funny you ask because a few months ago you talked about that in your BMW bad idea thread so I started looking.


Sadly no, the 722.x transmission series does not have a separable bell housing in any version I've seen between about 1964 and about 1999.

One guy did take an OM616 240d automatic, cut the bell housing off it, and cut the front off a w124 manual transmission so he could bolt a 5speed with overdrive to a 240d.

The w201/w124 transmissions are uncommon but they aren't tough to find, and bad automatics are free. Someone with more skill than I could probably put a getrag 5speed behind an M119.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Hmm... so there's no "easy" way to do it.

I guess it would be an appropriate fit with Mercedes quality and engineering if I had Tilton, Lakewood, Browell or whoever Vorschlag used for their GRM $2010 E30 build a custom SFI bellhousing for whatever oddball combination I come up with.

[CincinnatiFiero]

I personally don't mind an automatic and prefer them for my daily.

Mercedes autos are pretty easy to deal with, you can adjust shift points with your thumb, shift firmness with an Allen key, and transgo makes a shift kit if you still want it firmer.

The nice thing about Mercedes using similar transmissions in everything is the V12 cars had the strongest internals, followed I believe by the 6cyl turbo diesels. So you can rebuild diesel, 6cyl, and v8 transmissions with v12 guts.

All my friends overseas with 500-700hp diesels run built 722.3 and .4 transmissions. They can be pretty stout.


However if we weren't both up to our waists in projects I'd like to research putting a manual behind an M119.

[The Dark Side of Will]

The only time I like having a torque converter between my right foot and the drive tires is when I'm power braking for a hole shot.

However, I think a well-tuned, responsive automatic is nice.
It's just that no manufacturer BUILDS a well-tuned, responsive automatic, because a well-tuned, responsive calibration gets slightly worse mileage than the calibration optimized for economy. Well... most of my driving time has been domestic automatics... the E30 autos I've driven seem reasonably responsive, but they're connected to comparatively high strung engines, so they have to be in order for the car to move.

Admittedly, I haven't driven a Lexus IS-F, or the brand new Merc 6, 7 or 8 speed auto units, so they just might be closer to measuring up, but the fundamental fact remains that an economy calibration and performance calibration are not the same.

For example, most calibrations I've driven unlock the converter clutch on overrun. This means that the engine RPM drops and the car doesn't slow down as quickly as it would if the TCC stayed locked. That means the driver waits a little longer to get back on the gas and the car uses less fuel. It also means there's no engine braking and the car feels soggy to drive.

So if I diddle with the calibration and just keep the converter locked on overrun, then I end up with the RPM held too low for good responsiveness, so I change that location of the shift map to be a gear lower...

After completely remapping the transmission, I end up a gear lower than stock and the converter locked everywhere on the map except below flash RPM in 1st gear.

If it's tuned correctly, this can actually be faster. A poster on SpeedTalk related that he'd played with high capacity TCC's and run quicker and faster by locking the converter at the right time. After all, once it's above its stall speed, all the TC is doing is diverting engine output from the rear wheels to the transmission cooler.

Add in that sticks are lighter, simpler, have less to go wrong with them and last a LONG time, and I tend to prefer them.

Interesting info about the tunability of Merc transmissions, though.

[CincinnatiFiero]

I can't disagree with you on any of that, its just that I live downtown, and rowing the gears in traffic just 1st gear starting a million times gets old to me. I've always liked having manual transmission toys, but I guess I'm beyond my years with my love of heavy, big, automatic German saloon cars.

I'd like to figure out how to get a 5speed behind an M119 and do an R129 SL500 or SL600 with manual behind it.

My mental masturbation for the past few years has been a V12 M120 swapped into a W210. The M120 fits in the W124 and the W210. The M120 is two M104 6cylinders stuck together. So since the 124 and the 210 were both offered with M119 V8s the V12 fits width wise, and they were both offered with straight 6s, the V12 fits length wise. I believe if you start with a straight 6 car you need a v8 abs bracket to make the v12 fit, but that's about it. Brabus and maybe even renntech did the conversions on both chassis. There was a gorgeous 1995 E500 (updated front end final year 500E) with a Brabus 7.3L stroker V12 swap on german auto-trader a few years ago. It was like $60,000 though, granted in 1995 it was closer to $300,000.

Complete M120 drop outs from the mid 90s are consistently under the $2,000 mark now, and a few guys on the forum have sorted out how to megasquirt the V12 so there are some base files for people like me who don't know MS to get the car running on fairly easily. But the real thing I'd like to do, is get a 5speed behind it. A V12 5speed E-Class with an E600 badge on the back would be bad ass.

[CincinnatiFiero]

Might be worth an email to these guys

http://elbe.ee/products/drivetrain/gearbox-conversion


They also sell a phantom grip style pseudo limited slip setup for Benz diffs that is supposedly only like $200.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Interesting... bellhousing to mate a Getrag 265 to a MB V8... I guess great minds think alike

That mentions M116, M117 and M119... Is that the alloy block pattern? You mentioned the M116 and M117 as being built with both iron and aluminum blocks with different bellhousing patterns, but didn't mention the same regarding the M119.

[CincinnatiFiero]

M119s all have the same bolt pattern, but is the M119 the same as the alloy block M116/117, that I do not know.

I emailed them about a cost of the kit, and how much is included in the "kit" we will see if they reply.


I am fairly certain though that the M119 and M120 V12 share a bellhousing... so if Elbe is available and reasonalbe... manual trans behind a V12 in an e-class...