The hydraulic clutch works, now...

JamesCurtis · Post by **JamesCurtis** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 1:21 pm

The speedo went out. I don't know if this is associated or not, but the speedo worked, I took the car in, jacked it up, and put the inner fender wells and wheel wells on the rear, took the car out for a test drive, and now the speedo doesn't work. Is this probably just coincidence?

Series8217 · Post by **Series8217** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:32 pm

Yeah, if you don't have the left inner fender liner installed properly the speedometer won't work.
Make sure you have all the push rivets and screws installed.

First thing to check is the VSS plug. Maybe it just came loose. May as well remove the VSS itself and see if the plastic gear is still in good shape and check your tranny fluid while you're at it.
Next check the C203 under the center console. Just unplug it and plug it back; there may be a bad connection.
Take out the instrument cluster and make sure the speedometer hasn't come loose from the main housing; it has screws that just push into some clips to hold it in place. These also serve as the connectors.

MNFatz · Post by **MNFatz** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:04 pm

Just a note on pulling the VSS

Be VERY careful when you take it out. The size of the drive gear is just a tiny bit smaller than the diameter of the hole. The gear is press-fit onto the VSS drive pin and can come off if you catch the edge of the gear on the hole and pull just a little bit. It'll drop down into the tranny and is generally pretty tough if not impossible to get out.

JamesCurtis · Post by **JamesCurtis** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:22 pm

I've re-seated the vss connector already, i'm sure that it's connected. I'll check the c203 connector and take the VSS out today for a little test. I just got done replacing the clutch, and I refilled the tranny with synchromesh while I was at it, with no leaks, so hopefully the tranny fluid isn't a problem. I'm gonna head in and get a new battery for it, then check some things with a multimeter and see what I come up with. Thx for the suggestions :thumbleft:

JamesCurtis · Post by **JamesCurtis** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:50 pm

Well, I went out and checked it. There is no gear or shaft on the VSS any longer.

Now my question is, do I have to drop the tranny and split the case to get it out? I assume by now it's in many small pieces, since I took it up and down the road a couple times trying to diagnose the problem :cussing:

any ideas?

Kohburn · Post by **Kohburn** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:02 pm

no shaft? :uhoh:

the shaft is metal - but the gear is only plastic so it can get safetly chewed up in the tranny

MNFatz · Post by **MNFatz** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:55 pm

I wouldn't bother opening the tranny. That pin will just fall down to the bottom and lay there or latch onto a little magnet in the bottom of the case. There is no pump or anything inside a manual; everything is splash lubricated.

Just find a new vss.

JamesCurtis · Post by **JamesCurtis** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:13 pm

Yeah, the metal shaft actually snapped. It didn't come out the easiest, but I can't say that I put nearly enough pressure on it to break the shaft. Anything's possible though, I'll try fishing around in there with a magnet and see what I can find.

JamesCurtis · Post by **JamesCurtis** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:42 pm

Well, I prodded around today as far as I could with about a 6" long screw driver attachment with a magnet on the end to see if I could get lucky, but it was to no avail. I also felt around in there with my index finger to see if it was just sitting somewhere that I didn't get with the screwdriver attachment, but couldn't find it. It bothers me having a metal shaft in my tranny that could eat teeth. It isn't pump driven, but at the same time you would think that the fluid would be moving around enough to create some flow towards the teeth, which might draw the small metal shaft to them. Can you give me a 80% guarantee that it won't eat the teeth mnfatz?

Kohburn · Post by **Kohburn** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:46 pm

JamesCurtis wrote:Well, I prodded around today as far as I could with about a 6" long screw driver attachment with a magnet on the end to see if I could get lucky, but it was to no avail. I also felt around in there with my index finger to see if it was just sitting somewhere that I didn't get with the screwdriver attachment, but couldn't find it. It bothers me having a metal shaft in my tranny that could eat teeth. It isn't pump driven, but at the same time you would think that the fluid would be moving around enough to create some flow towards the teeth, which might draw the small metal shaft to them. Can you give me a 80% guarantee that it won't eat the teeth mnfatz?

look at it this way.. if you leave it in and it does eat the teeth you need to swap in a new tranny - if it you want to remove it you'll likely have to remove the tranny and split the case to get it out..

JamesCurtis · Post by **JamesCurtis** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:44 pm

Still open to ideas about how to solve this problem, i'm more than open to taking the tranny back out

MNFatz · Post by **MNFatz** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:00 pm

JamesCurtis wrote:Well, I prodded around today as far as I could with about a 6" long screw driver attachment with a magnet on the end to see if I could get lucky, but it was to no avail. I also felt around in there with my index finger to see if it was just sitting somewhere that I didn't get with the screwdriver attachment, but couldn't find it. It bothers me having a metal shaft in my tranny that could eat teeth. It isn't pump driven, but at the same time you would think that the fluid would be moving around enough to create some flow towards the teeth, which might draw the small metal shaft to them. Can you give me a 80% guarantee that it won't eat the teeth mnfatz?

Sure! I'll even go 99%. I just went out and snapped a pic of an empty muncie 4 speed case. The upper right corner of the picture shows a broken VSS. There's case damage around the edge as well.

At the very bottom of picture between the two bolts centered in the middle of the pic you'll see two aluminum projections. Those are little tabs that hold a magnet in place. When you drop that little metal pin that's where it ends up.

Click on the pic to supersize:

Chase Race · Post by **Chase Race** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:14 pm

MNFatz wrote:
JamesCurtis wrote:Can you give me a 80% guarantee that it won't eat the teeth mnfatz?
Sure! I'll even go 99%.

I'd be wary of giving that much of a guarantee. I had an experience with a Getrag where that magnet came out of the slot, got wedged between the ring gear and the case, and broke the case.

In the Getrag there's less than 1/4" clearance between the ring gear and the case. If the clearance in the Isuzu is similar then I'd be worried about the pin finding the ring gear before it finds the magnet.

JamesCurtis · Post by **JamesCurtis** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:41 pm

well let's just say i put a good 3 or 4 hard runs in on it after I lost my speedo output. I felt around in there and felt a large gear that I'm guessing the VSS turns off of, but I couldn't feel anything that felt remotely like what I was looking for. I don't know too much about tranny internals, but was the ring gear what I was feeling?

Also, didn't p8ntman422 take apart an isuzu once? I remember him posting pics of the innards of a tranny or two, can anyone link me to those? I can't seem to find them

MNFatz · Post by **MNFatz** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:51 pm

There's a pic of the speedo drive you're feeling in this thread:

http://realfierotech.com/phpBB/viewtopi ... sc&start=0

And there's pics of the muncie internals in this thread:

http://realfierotech.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2256

JamesCurtis · Post by **JamesCurtis** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:38 pm

oooh i must've had you & p8nt mixed up MNFatz, thx for the pics :thumbleft: