Flat head V8 on HorsepowerTV

[Aaron]

There is not a vehicle in the GM lineup that comes anywhere near 100hp/l N/A. Neither does Ford, Dodge, Mercedes Benz, Suubara, or fucking Fiat.

I hope to God you are being sarcastic here, as displacement aside I really don't think there is a better platform to build on.

now you are talking displacement again? YOU are the one that made the assanine generalization about GM never coming close to 100hp/l

What's your point? When has GM ever come close to, or passed, 100hp/l in a production vehicle? Not once that I know of. The closest is probably the Quad 4 HO, but at just under 80, it isn't really that close.

My point was, that if the Honda motor had the same displacement as the GM motors, it'd made much more power. But they choose to make the same, even more, power with much less displacement.

jstillwell, good point and I totally agree. Thus the point I'm not using a N* in our 55 Bel Air although it'd be the superior engine IMHO.

[whipped]

Yeah, but if you put that Honda motor in your 32 Hi-boy or your 49 Merc, your gonna get your ass laughed out of the fairgrounds. I thought we were talking about flatheads. They obviously didn't pick the motor for it's viability as a high HP platform. Flatheads are museum pieces, and should be respected as such. I think taking a 80 year old motor from 40 hp to 260 is rather impressive.

I thought it was 80hp?

[The Dark Side of Will]

So now you're limiting the motor class and displacement. No, I'll take the 3.2l, and make 280hp stock. You said Honda motor, not B series 4 cylinder.

You made a general statement, and an ignorant one at that. A Honda enigne is just as capable, if not more, as a GM, Dodge, or a Mercedes engine liter for liter.

Gee, Aaron, I'd say I was sorry that I didn't employ encyclopaedic specificity when I made a flippant comment intended to make people laugh, but I'm not, so I won't. Next time you talk about your Chevy engine I'll be sure to rib you about the stovebolt 6.

Doesn't the Honda V6 cost about 10G's anyway?

[jstillwell]

... I think taking a 80 year old motor from 40 hp to 260 is rather impressive.

I thought it was 80hp?

Hell if I know. I don't know what difference you'd notice between 40 and 80. :scratch:

[Chase Race]

Bunch of stuff to catch up on here...

What's wierd is they have the valves in the block, like a small engine. Does that make it an underhead valve? UHV?

No, that makes it a flathead. :la:

The american people dont want it. (yet)

aaron... what he is trying to say is that GM can do it, they choose not to because thats not what the average American wants.

Most moms and dads are fine with high torque low hp motors, so why would build a high hp/L NA 4cyl?

Well, if the average American doesn't want a high hp/liter 4 cylinder then who has been buying all these Hondas?

On the other hand, the reality is that when it comes to street cars, specific output (hp/displacement) is a meaningless measurement. If you're racing in a class with a displacement limit then specific output becomes important, but not on the street. What's important in a street car is horsepower per: weight, size (external dimensions, not displacement), fuel economy, drivability.

Seriously. If you're driving a car that has good drivability, makes 250hp, and gets 25mpg, who cares what the displacement is? It doesn't matter. That only comes into play for marketing and advertising. And either fortunately or unfortunately, marketing plays a very important role in selling cars. While it may be that the powerband of a 3800 is just about perfect for the driving habits of the average American, that average American wants more "high tech" whether he/she needs it or not.


Now getting back to more important topic - flatheads! Flatheads are cool!

Here's a long term project Dad and I are working on - a '51 Hudson Hornet. The plan is to eventually compete in La Carrera Panamericana but right now it's waiting on money while we do cheap/free stuff like strip the parts car.


308 ci flathead straight 6 rated at 145hp from the factory:



Dad:

[Kohburn]

neat.. seems that to keep the combustion chamber to a reasonable size it would restrict flow - but seems like a solid design with very little to go wrong.. probably run just about forever

[donk_316]

<waiting for aaron to chime in about VE of flatheads and how his dohc lawnmower made by AMG has a higher hp/L than anything ever made>

[whipped]

What's wierd is they have the valves in the block, like a small engine. Does that make it an underhead valve? UHV?

No, that makes it a flathead. :la:

LIES!

I'm calling it an UHV engine.

Or maybe an IDB engine. (valves are in da block) :thumbleft:

[Aaron]

<waiting for aaron to chime in about VE of flatheads and how his dohc lawnmower made by AMG has a higher hp/L than anything ever made>

Donk you're starting to act like p8ntman here, you don't have to drop to that level.

Yes, we all know the VE on a flathead isn't good. That doesn't mean it's a worthless engine, I'd love to have one. I'm helping my neighbor work on his 30s Lincoln Zephyr, flathead V12, and I LOVE IT. It is so intriging how they ran, they look so old school. And the fact that it has 2, read 2, wires from the engine. It is a really cool engine. I am running an all iron small block with a tiny cam, terrible heads, etc. The thing will barely rev past 5500, but there is just something about it that I love. Oh yah, it's the fact that it will smoke the tires through 3rd and into 4th.

Next, you're incorrect here, AMG does not use a DOHC engine, in any of their models, period. Lastly, AMG's specific hp/l aren't even all that great, and they take boost to get it anyways.

[Indy]

neat.. seems that to keep the combustion chamber to a reasonable size it would restrict flow - but seems like a solid design with very little to go wrong.. probably run just about forever

They DO run forever. My dad has a '48 Ford 8AN tractor with a flathead 4 cylinder. The head was pulled off for the first time 3 years ago. Had to replace one of the cylinder liners and a piston. Put everything back together and runs like a champ. I won't be suprised if it goes another 25-30 years before the next rebuild.

[The Dark Side of Will]

neat.. seems that to keep the combustion chamber to a reasonable size it would restrict flow - but seems like a solid design with very little to go wrong.. probably run just about forever

That's why flatheads were replaced by OHV and OHC designs. Can't get high compression and high flow.

They DO run forever. My dad has a '48 Ford 8AN tractor with a flathead 4 cylinder. The head was pulled off for the first time 3 years ago. Had to replace one of the cylinder liners and a piston. Put everything back together and runs like a champ. I won't be suprised if it goes another 25-30 years before the next rebuild.

That's because pushing 25 HP from 100 cid isn't exactly stressful to the engine.

[Chase Race]

Here's another picture of that Hudson motor once we got it out of the car. If you want to talk about a boat anchor, this is your engine. Except that it probably weighs more than your average boat anchor.

The car in the background is Dad's '46 Hudson convertible. He's been a Hudson fan forever. The convertible had a straight six in it until Dad recently replaced it with a Hudson straight eight. It's a flathead, of course.

That's why flatheads were replaced by OHV and OHC designs. Can't get high compression and high flow.

Another problem with flatheads getting good flow is that valve lift is limited by the size of the cam journals (cam lobes can't be taller than the journals or you can't get the cam in the block). On an OHV engine this isn't an issue because you have rocker arms to increase the lift.

I suppose this is the same for some 4-valve OHC engines, but I would guess it doesn't matter as much with twice as many valves.

[Aaron]

I suppose this is the same for some 4-valve OHC engines, but I would guess it doesn't matter as much with twice as many valves.

The 3.4 DOHC is this way. So the only way to increase lift is with shims on the lifters, and cutting the base circle of the cam down. Hopefully I'll be doing this in the not-to-distant future.