Raydar's TrueLeo before/after dyno has arrived

[JamesCurtis]

That's alot of area gained under the torque curve :thumbleft:

here's his quote about the different dynos

The blue (bottom) line was my 3.4 as dynoed last year.
It used the stock Camaro cam (which specs the same as the Fiero cam), 19 lb. injectors, Darrell Morse's bored TB and plenum, Sprint manifolds, aftermarket "muffler shop" cat, and a custom chip.
The numbers were 115.47 HP & 158.51 TQ.

The green (top) line was my best of 4-5 runs, this past weekend. It's the same engine with the Trueleo intake (same throttle body), 1.6 rockers, cat replaced with a test pipe, underdrive pulley, and a chip that was burned by Troy to complement the manifold.
The numbers were 134.41 HP & 172.74 TQ.

Edit - The red (center) line was all the new hardware, with the same chip that I ran last year.

Not bad. Keep in mind that this is through an automatic tranny.
The heads and lower intake have not been ported.

This was also not the "best" chip. I had another chip that was also burned by Troy that is just a little "fatter", and seemed to run a little better in the car. Unfortunately, I broke off one of the pins before I could dyno it. Made the ECM (not to mention the driver) really unhappy.

[Shaun41178(2)]

so let me get this straight.

He did more then just changed the intake. He put on 1.6 rockers, no cat, underdrive pulley, and a few custom chips.

So where exactly are the gains of the intake all by itself?

Wow what a scientific approach to this testing.

I am waiting for someone to do a before and after of the intake only to see what the real resuslts of the intake are. Not doing a dozen other mods and then claim the intake made a bunch more power.

BTW that pic doesnt' work.

[The Dark Side of Will]

LOL... here's the link...

http://Fagland.hostkansas.com/pffimages/DYNO1a.jpg

that auto replace works a little too well...

[Shaun41178(2)]

damnit can't even click the link.

hehehe love the autofix. Its bleeps bad words people. Its there for a reason :thumbleft:

Still that link doesnt' work. Probably because we were able to hack the forum again.

[eHoward]

I don't really blame him. It's not his job to show the effect of the intake. It's the person selling the intake's job. I probably wouldn't have cared.

At least he posted a dyno run. THat's two steps ahead of everyone else over there.

so let me get this straight.

He did more then just changed the intake. He put on 1.6 rockers, no cat, underdrive pulley, and a few custom chips.

So where exactly are the gains of the intake all by itself?

Wow what a scientific approach to this testing.

I am waiting for someone to do a before and after of the intake only to see what the real resuslts of the intake are. Not doing a dozen other mods and then claim the intake made a bunch more power.

BTW that pic doesnt' work.

[The Dark Side of Will]

It can still be used for qualitative purposes. Even the red line is making more power at 5700 than the original setup at 5300. The one with the Trueleo chip is way better than that.

The trueleo chip and intake is up about 30 HP at 5300 RPM from the original setup. They only ran it to 5700, but it looks like the Trueleo intake & chip graph would take till about 6200 to fall off to the same extent that the original setup did at 5300.

Is a chip really a change? If you have an engine that's well tuned and you change something as dramatic as the intake manifold, now you're running it on improper tuning and not showing the full benefit of the modification. You would then need to modify the chip in order to run the new setup at it's full potential. I don't consider this a change because for comparison purposes, you're going from one well tuned hardware combo to another.

[Kohburn]

Is a chip really a change? If you have an engine that's well tuned and you change something as dramatic as the intake manifold, now you're running it on improper tuning and not showing the full benefit of the modification. You would then need to modify the chip in order to run the new setup at it's full potential. I don't consider this a change because for comparison purposes, you're going from one well tuned hardware combo to another.

yeah that'd be like slapping a turbo on with no chip and complain about how bad the performance gains were (if you didn't completely destroy the engine)

or think of it in carb terms.. would you do a mod without readjusting the carb settings?

[BigRedDeckSpoiler]

I don't really blame him. It's not his job to show the effect of the intake. It's the person selling the intake's job. I probably wouldn't have cared.

At least he posted a dyno run. THat's two steps ahead of everyone else over there.

so let me get this straight.

He did more then just changed the intake. He put on 1.6 rockers, no cat, underdrive pulley, and a few custom chips.

So where exactly are the gains of the intake all by itself?

Wow what a scientific approach to this testing.

I am waiting for someone to do a before and after of the intake only to see what the real resuslts of the intake are. Not doing a dozen other mods and then claim the intake made a bunch more power.

BTW that pic doesnt' work.

Thanks Howard.

Truth is, most of that other stuff is an exercise in futility without the manifold. You'd still hit that "wall" at 4500-5K. You'd just hit it more quickly. I probably wouldn't have even done the 1.6 rockers if I had known that the Camaro cam spec'd the same as the stock Fiero cam. I was under the impression that the Camaro cam was an economy cam (read that on the internet, someplace), and the 1.6s would just get me back to the same neighborhood as the Fiero cam.

I had originally planned to run the chart to at least 6K, but the runs were done in high gear and it was taking a while to get there. People were starting to shoot each other worried looks, and backing away from that end of the room -I suppose in anticipation of a shower of hot engine parts.
On the street, it's still pulling like hell at 6K in the lower gears.
And that's enough. It's just a Grooms rebuild. If I had built it and had taken all the appropriate care, I'd let it rip.
But then again, if I had gone to the trouble to build it myself, I probably would have had the heads and lower intake ported (will probably do the lower intake anyway). I'm pretty convinced that that's the next choke point.

Wonder how much abuse a stock bottom end can handle before parts start to wander off in different directions.

[GmetalGT]

hey, 30hp is a good gain! Congrats on that and thanks for the Dyno. Like I said before. This makes me wish I still had my 3.4 at times.

[Shaun41178(2)]

I dont' mind the chip as thats needed.

What I was talking about Will was everything else.

the rockers, the cat, the other little things that add up. I mean if you are going to dyno just the intake then do the intake.

But Howard is right. Its not Bigredspoilers job to show sheets of the intake. Its the people selling them. However you know they are going to be relying on his dynos to show how much power the intake can add when they shouldnt' be. I can see it now. All the talk will be on his dyno's instead of mosh mans which of course were much less gain.

I never did see a dyno of this done on a 2.8

Either way I do agree that at least you got it dynoed. That is saying much more then many people over there who like to claim big numbers but dont' prove it. So I give you a :thumbleft: for that.

I also think it is hilarious that everyone was shutting their engines down so early. DUde your car wont' explode on the dyno. I find it so funny why Fiero people get so wigged out about the rpms. I saw so many last year and again this year of people shutting down at 5k rpm on a bone stock 2.8. ITS NOT GOING TO BLOW UP!!!!

I run my 2.8 nitrous fed motor to 6k on the dyno all the time. Thats with nitrous. Much higher cylinder pressures and temps over n/a. So hello a bone stock n/a 3.4 or any motor should be fine to 6k.

THe engines will be fine.

Oh yea and welcome aboard

[eHoward]

Welcome to the board.

Thanks Howard.

You know what I'm curious about. Anyone know what Cooter's 3.4 with the dual TB intake made. I think he made 180 horse. Although I'm not sure if that was g-tech'd or dynod at the wheels.

I think a runner length/volume comparison would be interesting.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Shaun has the Starship Enterprise intake, actually.

[eHoward]

YEah, but his engine has less volume.

Shaun has the Starship Enterprise intake, actually.

[The Dark Side of Will]

What I was talking about Will was everything else.

I never did see a dyno of this done on a Boat Anchor

Well... I really don't think that this intake is going to be very impressive on a boat anchor or anything even close to stock.

What I would really like to see is a rip roarin' rompin' stompin' fully built 3.4 or 3.5 with fully ported Fiero intake swap over to the Trueleo intake. That will give a much better indication of the potential of the Trueleo setup. After all, it wasn't made for stock engines... it was made to help modded engines pull the air that they need. From what I've seen, I think that such an engine could easily gain 20 HP peak and have much better top end than anything breathing through even a fully ported stock intake.

[JamesCurtis]

Videos -

#1 - http://vids.huntsvillecarscene.com/even ... V07300.MPG

#2 - http://vids.huntsvillecarscene.com/even ... V07300.MPG

#3 - http://vids.huntsvillecarscene.com/even ... V07301.THM

#4 - http://vids.huntsvillecarscene.com/even ... V07302.MPG

#5 - http://vids.huntsvillecarscene.com/even ... V07303.MPG

I'm not sure if these were listed in chronological order or not, but they are kinda fun to watch. This is raydar's red car w/3.4 and trueleo intake on the dyno

[ditch]

What I was talking about Will was everything else.

I never did see a dyno of this done on a Boat Anchor

Well... I really don't think that this intake is going to be very impressive on a boat anchor or anything even close to stock.

What I would really like to see is a rip roarin' rompin' stompin' fully built 3.4 or 3.5 with fully ported Fiero intake swap over to the Trueleo intake. That will give a much better indication of the potential of the Trueleo setup. After all, it wasn't made for stock engines... it was made to help modded engines pull the air that they need. From what I've seen, I think that such an engine could easily gain 20 HP peak and have much better top end than anything breathing through even a fully ported stock intake.

If I didn't have a carb on my 3.4 I would love to put one of these on to see the gains over the stock fiero intake. Swapping the intake and putting on the harness would be too much of a pain in the ass though...not to mention I'll need to put the V6 fuel pump back in. Hell with that.

I do intend on trying this intake on freshly rebuilt 2.8 that I'll hopefully have done sometime this summer. I'm restoring the car and as far as the rebuild goes, I'm doing a basic rebuild but adding a set of ported heads, ported manifolds, big cam, and good exhaust. I'm going to have the stock intake on it first. Then I want to swap a truleo intake and do a before/after dyno. The bottleneck will definitely be that damn upper plenum. I want to see how much that intake can do for this setup.

I think that would be good info especially for the other forum since there are so many members that have the 2.8 and want to know if the new intake is a worthwhile mod. Most people will buy this intake and put it on in place of a bone stock intake.

I also think that before I put the truleo on my rebuilt 2.8 I'll slap it on my commuter car (stock 2. and do a before/after dyno. That would be interresting. Part of me thinks that a stock 2.8 can breath just fine with a stock intake and the addition of a truelo isn't cost effective.

I do like the potential of the truelo intake. My hat is off to them and all the work they did to develop it.

Dave

edit: jesus krist what is with this boat anchor shit? I know it's only a 2 point 8 but at least it's not a POS duke

[donk_316]

errr my 3.4L is about as "rip roaring" as they get...

send it to me!

[loudias]

What I would really like to see is a rip roarin' rompin' stompin' fully built 3.4 or 3.5 with fully ported Fiero intake swap over to the Trueleo intake. That will give a much better indication of the potential of the Trueleo setup. After all, it wasn't made for stock engines... it was made to help modded engines pull the air that they need. From what I've seen, I think that such an engine could easily gain 20 HP peak and have much better top end than anything breathing through even a fully ported stock intake.

http://www.geocities.com/lou_dias/Fiero.html

The first graph is my original Grooms 3.4 with stock TB and crane 2030 compucam, ported lower, middle and upper intake (but not TB opening)

the second is a 100,000k stock 3.4 with the Darrel TB + upper intake (but the ports to the middle weren't ported) on another set of ported heads with the same ported lower and middle intake and a Crane .427/.452" cam. (H260)

[Shaun41178(2)]

Lou, I would personally like to welcome you to this forum.

I do think you are one of the few who have actually done the 3. 4 justice.

You put on ported heads, intakes and a larger cam. Putting down 150 hp(about 20 hp more then most) on the dyno is very good for that engine without a custom tune for it.

And you showed that the exh you had was a major restriction as well in the manifolds.

Most people wont' spend the money for the larger cam let alone dyno time for it and then complain that the engine doesnt' perform as well as they thought it would. Well Hello!! No wonder!!

I think you can see 170 whp with a better exh and the freer flowing intake system. That works out to be aorund 200 crank hp which is pretty impressive for an old 2 valve pushrod motor.

Most fiero owners just throw shit in the back and then complain that its still slow without taking the time to find out why. You did it right, spent the money to make more power, and then dynoed the results to see where improvements could be made.

Even after doing all of that and sharing it with the other forum, they still dont' listen. They still want to do it their way(cheaply and then complain). Ungratefull bastards if you ask me.

You showed what needs to be done to get the hp. Most wont' listen though.

I hope you end up sticking around.

[loudias]

Thanks Shaun.
People are also setting the timing to stock. When you should really set it to the point just before pinging for maximum power. To find that point, you must advance it until you ping. That scares people. It's what I did. Pinged on about 6 runs before we got it perfect. Hence run 12 with 149.8rwhp.

I'm Fieroless right now...and licenseless...

But in a year I want to start building my final pushrod 3.4 with stock f.i. system. I want to see what it's really capable of.

Changes will be:

fully balanced motor
aluminum flywheel
over-bored to maybe 3.7" (3.5L)
TDC pistons (hopefully can get the .080 overbore)
shortened (ala 1fst2m6) intake and fully ported with a Darrel TB
P.A.W. cam (.443/.465) can't beat the price
and a custom 2.5" exhaust + headers

My goal is 180rwhp. As I've stated at Pennock's. I don't feel the intake is the current major restriction on the 3.4 as the entire system is not very efficient. A bigger exhaust is in order. The exhaust will give me atleast 50% of my gains over the previous 150hp. A higher compression ratio (via pistons) and bigger cam and shortened intake should cover the rest. (not to mention a couple extra cubes ) And I'll keep the receipts and post some costs. I will do none of the labor myself so the costs will be on 100% paid labor.

I've spent over $4500 before and I'll do it again. I really haven't had any reliability issues that weren't my own fault with 60 degree motors. That is how I can justify spending this much. I expect to have a motor that will last me 70,000 miles. I don't do random clutch dumps for the sake of showing off on the street. I'm way past that (34 years old in 2 weeks). I do take my cars to Seekonk Speedway and compete against suped up Mustands, Camaros, WRX's, etc... on the 1/3 mile oval track. My cars has always been a top 3 cars...however my driving sucks ass! I usually make it to the semi or quarter finals and almost always lose to the guy that wins in one of his closer races...but I digress... I'll miss it this year...