dual charged 3800

Mach10 · Post by **Mach10** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:50 am

Sorry... I'm not closed-minded, I'm jaded :salute:

You can't even count the number of "will this fit, it looks sweet" things that pop up across all the automotive boards I frequent... And most of your posts seemed to focus on how things look--rather on how they work. If I'm way off on my assumption here, I apologize.

IMHO, The 3800 isn't the nicest looking motor to start with. Lots of vacuum lines and electrical draped around it, the SC poking out from a mess of coolant pipes...

There's some fantastic examples of great looking motors that have been done in the past... But it seems that most people that want the 3800SC don't give a rat's ass what it looks like; only that it works like it's supposed to (read: goes like stink).

EBSB52 · Post by **EBSB52** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:02 pm

Mach10 wrote:Sorry... I'm not closed-minded, I'm jaded :salute:

You can't even count the number of "will this fit, it looks sweet" things that pop up across all the automotive boards I frequent... And most of your posts seemed to focus on how things look--rather on how they work. If I'm way off on my assumption here, I apologize.

IMHO, The 3800 isn't the nicest looking motor to start with. Lots of vacuum lines and electrical draped around it, the SC poking out from a mess of coolant pipes...

There's some fantastic examples of great looking motors that have been done in the past... But it seems that most people that want the 3800SC don't give a rat's ass what it looks like; only that it works like it's supposed to (read: goes like stink).

Yea I'm with ya there, fuck looks, I want go-juice. I will prolly never paint my car, but I'm pissed at how long I've taken to do the N*. I could do cams and springs for 1k or get a nice poaint job after I get it going.... guess which will happen? Looks are just when u have too much money/time :thumbleft: ...esp engine looks.

But the LS7 is an awesome looking motor, all BS aside :thumbleft:

the-dude1 · Post by **the-dude1** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:23 pm

well in my opinion to have a good finished product of our "project" fieros it all needs to look good!! i am in the process of doing body and paint right now!! after that im going to suspension and under body, after that is the motor, then the interior. we all have our own plans with our fieros some are to be great street/show and others to be street beating demons.. in any case any work done to them is a good thing. so i dont see why i am being bashed by you guys for wanting mine to look nice as well as move ass.
you would think that you guys would encourage someone that wants to make it look nice???

Mach10 · Post by **Mach10** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:30 pm

Ah, to be young and idealistic again! You aren't being bashed... People are giving you an earful of how they think.

I used to care what my Fiero looked like... but now I only care that it runs well; I can get a paintjob once it's got a few thousand trouble-free miles on it.

That said, I'm all for doing the job right, and having things secured and nicely tucked away. My second 3.4TDC motor is done, but I ripped the wiring out and am redoing it to make sure nothing interferes with anything, is safe, secure, and well protected.

The offshoot of this is that my current install looks about a BILLION times better than my initial attempt; and I haven't even started the wrapping/looming.

The criticism here on my part is more that you should spend some time reading up and learning how the intake works (I'm certainly no expert) rather than concerning yourself with how it looks.

Design/build/scavange an intake that works the way you want it to work; once it's working, spend some time making it look the way you want it to look.

It's a LOT easier than picking something you like the look of and having to reinvent the wheel trying to make it work properly

the-dude1 · Post by **the-dude1** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:34 pm

i dont want to build a fiero that looks great until you open the trunk/hood and see a compartment full of crap!!! and i do all my own body and paint and the rest of the work for that matter so it doesn't cost much for it to look great...

the-dude1 · Post by **the-dude1** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:42 pm

ok i got cha mach10 i guess bashed was not a good choice of words!! and what i was trying to get at is the tpi intake is a look that i would like to have under the hood.. i know what i am doing to the motor so now i am on to the design/appearance of the swap!! so i want an intake that is highly functional and has good look to it!! so lets end this argument and get back to a good working/looking intake :thumbleft:

Mach10 · Post by **Mach10** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:43 pm

The trick is finding the balance.

The other extreme is a done-up customized car that looks fantastic but needs a team of sled-dogs to get out of it's own way.

Mach10 · Post by **Mach10** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:47 pm

How much money you want to spend?

Hire an engineer to figure out your ideal intake runner lengths + diameters, have it machined out of billet aluminum, mandrel bent runners, mirror polish...

IMHO the TPI "look" is hopelessly old. I like "X's" intake; simple, effective, reasonably easy to build.

My own motor is buried under a wide, flat intake manifold. Looks just fine to me--makes the engine compartment nice and clean.

EBSB52 · Post by **EBSB52** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:40 pm

the-dude wrote:i dont want to build a fiero that looks great until you open the trunk/hood and see a compartment full of crap!!! and i do all my own body and paint and the rest of the work for that matter so it doesn't cost much for it to look great...

Who cares? As long as you smoke the ghey pudstain (Mustang) and make him look stupid, so what? In fact, if he has a Pudstain GT and a fugly Fiero beats him, his already 2" dick will retract the rest of the way. I'm not much of a poser, but hey, I can't knock it.

As for full of crap, having it functional vs having shit wired together are different. Just cause the colors don;t match doesn't make it shit.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:24 pm

the-dude wrote:so lets end this argument and get back to a good working/looking intake :thumbleft:

Argument ended.

The Dark Side of Will · Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:30 pm

That board right in the middle of your runners is going to hurt flow.

Mach10 · Post by **Mach10** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:37 pm

Ditto the vice-grips.

p8ntman442 · Post by **p8ntman442** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:15 pm

non running motors dont need good flow to work, that board will be fine.

As far as this thread goes, its quite obvious that on page one when I told him he had to run a t3 and he didnt tell me to shut the fuck up, that this build is never going to happen.

SOOOOOOOOO......

Let it die.

The Dark Side of Will · Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:23 pm

EBSB52 wrote:
The Dark Side of Will wrote:The M90 is a good match for a stock L67, but it's really run WAY beyond its limits once the engine is heavily modded. It's not a good choice for big power. Either a Whipple or a turbo would be a much easier way to make big power... both are MUCH more efficient at high boost than the Eaton.
With an intercooled, overdriven M90 or 112, you can make 400HP/400+TQ pretty easily, right? So are we gonna stuff 500 HP into the Fiero trannies/axles? It just seems a little turbo-junkie to do all that work. It seems like a like the turbo vs SC argument is like the auto vs stick arg and it seems a little futile to gut a SC to put a tubo on there and deal with mixture issues, etc. But hey, that's why I ask, I dunno. What are you expecting to gain? What are you gonna do to the rest of teh drivetrain to handle whatever you do?

While the M90 can get to high power levels, it's not working efficiently at those power levels and is actually working against the overall power level of the engine. I've heard of people with heavily modified L67's picking up over 100 horsepower from a blower upgrade, mostly through lower intake temps, although the bigger blowers can usually make more boost as well. The MP112 is a blower upgrade and AFAIK, requires an adapter kit.

Basically, getting that power out of an M90 is like trying to get a lot of power out of a T3... you can get power out of it, but once you're at a certain level, it's just better to get something else.

lucky · Post by **lucky** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:24 pm

putting a turbo before a supercharger is more than redundant anyway, it's pointless. yes, in theory you get the best of both worlds, no lag low end, and killer top end power, but both are desiegned to work on ambient air pressure intake to function properly. force feeding a supercharger will create massive gain, then massive failure from overloading the mechanism and the engine.

AkursedX · Post by **AkursedX** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:33 pm

You really don't even need to swap l36 heads and intake on. All you really need is an M90 block-off plate from ZZP (They even make one with an intercooler now). IMO, it's probably the easiest way to go turbo. Add a turbo-cam profile, a nice GT-series turbo, and you can probably put out some insane and reliable power.

As far as looks, as long as you wire things nicely, and run the plumbing as much out of sight, you can have a nice looking engine bay. I don't mind having a shitty looking engine bay if I'm producing good power.

EBSB52 · Post by **EBSB52** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:46 pm

The Dark Side of Will wrote:
EBSB52 wrote:
The Dark Side of Will wrote:The M90 is a good match for a stock L67, but it's really run WAY beyond its limits once the engine is heavily modded. It's not a good choice for big power. Either a Whipple or a turbo would be a much easier way to make big power... both are MUCH more efficient at high boost than the Eaton.
With an intercooled, overdriven M90 or 112, you can make 400HP/400+TQ pretty easily, right? So are we gonna stuff 500 HP into the Fiero trannies/axles? It just seems a little turbo-junkie to do all that work. It seems like a like the turbo vs SC argument is like the auto vs stick arg and it seems a little futile to gut a SC to put a tubo on there and deal with mixture issues, etc. But hey, that's why I ask, I dunno. What are you expecting to gain? What are you gonna do to the rest of teh drivetrain to handle whatever you do?
While the M90 can get to high power levels, it's not working efficiently at those power levels and is actually working against the overall power level of the engine. I've heard of people with heavily modified L67's picking up over 100 horsepower from a blower upgrade, mostly through lower intake temps, although the bigger blowers can usually make more boost as well. The MP112 is a blower upgrade and AFAIK, requires an adapter kit.

Basically, getting that power out of an M90 is like trying to get a lot of power out of a T3... you can get power out of it, but once you're at a certain level, it's just better to get something else.

With an ntecooled, overdriven M90 or even 112, can't you achieve 400? It's easier, quicker and you get thump right from jump street. I dunno, I'm a blower guy so I'm biased.

EBSB52 · Post by **EBSB52** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:47 pm

lucky80 wrote:putting a turbo before a supercharger is more than redundant anyway, it's pointless. yes, in theory you get the best of both worlds, no lag low end, and killer top end power, but both are desiegned to work on ambient air pressure intake to function properly. force feeding a supercharger will create massive gain, then massive failure from overloading the mechanism and the engine.

Most would just get dumped anyway, rt?

lucky · Post by **lucky** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:50 pm

EBSB52 wrote:
lucky80 wrote:putting a turbo before a supercharger is more than redundant anyway...
Most would just get dumped anyway, rt?

the engine would run so hot and lean that without extensive reinforcement and fuel delivery upgrades ya might get 3 or 4 really insane 1/4 miles out of it before you destroyed the motor or if you're lucky just the supercharger or turbo

The Dark Side of Will · Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:59 pm

Please listen before you speak.

Why would a twin charged engine run lean?