3800scII 5speed OBD1 or 2? SINISTER!!!

txf · Post by **txf** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:23 am

Looking at going with Sinister for programming but still undecided on which computer to run. Have a 96 PCM right now but have access to a 93 ECM. Wiring will be done by me.

Are any of these still suffering from stalling during shifts?
Any and all info would be great. But I do need to get wiring soon.
I have this one in the works followed by a 3800SCII 4T65E-HD
And then another 5 speed 3800SCII So let me know and let me know prices please.

Jinxmutt · Post by **Jinxmutt** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:23 pm

Just for the record I have an OBD1 3800sc 5spd that has never stalled and has no driveability problems whatsoever. I drive the car every single day whether its to class or 800miles back home, it just runs. I'm not saying one is better than another or offering suggestions, but OBD1 is simple at what it does, works.

txf · Post by **txf** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:36 pm

It's been said (by loyde) that OBD2 is way better than 1 and you will lose power with OBD1 on an OBD2 engine. I doubt it but when Wideband tuning you may get a flatter line with 2 I think. But I'll leave it to the experienced to tell. I know Sinister has the OBD2 tunercat tuning software before it was sold to Jet. Wish I could get my hands on it.

darkhorizon · Post by **darkhorizon** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:27 pm

look around clubgp.com for a powertuner, I use it on my obd2 swap and it works great!

Cheap too, about 300 used.

jelly2m81 · Post by **jelly2m81** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:16 pm

txf wrote:It's been said (by loyde) that ............ you will lose power with OBD1 on an OBD2 engine.

I call BS on this claim. The one OBD1 PCM L67 swap I did that was actually dynoed made 270 whp and 305 wtq with just SLP rockers, WCF headers and exhaust system and a smaller pulley. It has recently passed Ontario emissions testings with flying colors.

I'd say the OBD1 PCM is doing a fine job of engine management on that OBD2 engine.

No doubt an OBD2 PCM will have greater tuning capability but claiming you will lose power with a OBD1 PCM is plain horse shit.

The Dark Side of Will · Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:05 am

I don't even think that the OBDII will have any better tuning capability. The fraction of the program's variables that will be available to tweaking is going to be about the same for each (pretty large), which makes each as tunable as the other.

OBDII is flashable, but if you spend $300 on tuning hardware (entry price for OBDII), you can have an EPROM emulator, which will do OBDI in REAL TIME on the FLY (no shutdown required).

If you want to go cheaper, you can get into OBDI for a LOT less money than OBDII, and if you get an EEPROM and USB PROM burner, you can be about as fast retuning OBDI manually as stopping & shutting down to reflash an OBDII computer. With an emulator, obviously, an OBDI setup would be MUCH faster to tune than OBDII.

AkursedX · Post by **AkursedX** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:28 am

I agree. It's not really a matter of OBD-1 vs. OBD-2. It's more a matter of having a proper tune on whichever you decide.

The Dark Side of Will · Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:34 am

God wrote:'88 Fiero GT- '88 GT- 257rwhp 319rwft/lbs 12.95 @ 106.1mph

I find your time interesting... My manual trans Northstar with 255 rwhp and 267 rwtq ran 12.86 @ 106. Tell the TPI guys that torque isn't everything.

txf · Post by **txf** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:13 pm

What spoofs are needed for OBD1? I know on my wife's car She wants an auto so OBDII may be the best way to go on that since I already have the 4T65E-HD. How much does Sinister charge for the OBDII programming? It will be a straight up No mods install which should make it easy since it'll only need Passkey removed as well as anything else that needs to be turned off. Other than that Straight Stock install. Is there a specific computer that should be used that is better at eliminating codes than others?

AkursedX · Post by **AkursedX** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:16 pm

The Dark Side of Will wrote:
I find your time interesting... My manual trans Northstar with 255 rwhp and 267 rwtq ran 12.86 @ 106. Tell the TPI guys that torque isn't everything.

If anything, it makes it harder to hook up! I feel there is 12.7x capabilities if I can learn how to get a good launch, but even still, that extra 52ft/lbs doesn't really help much. I would show the dyno sheets and timeslips to the TPI owners, but TPI guys don't need those things to know that their car is the fastest thing on the street

txf · Post by **txf** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:27 pm

Also need to know how much for a chip burn.

Will, could you put together a supplies list for tuning? I'm looking to Emulate then once that's done I'll need to burn the new chip for finalizing the install. This will be done on OBD1 3800sc and Syclone or Turbo Sunbird ECM 16198263.

Sinister Fiero · Post by **Sinister Fiero** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:44 pm

First off I would like to put this rumor to bed once and for all concerning OBD-1 not being capable of making as much power as OBD-2. There are several Buick Grand National 3.8L Turbo V6's out there running 9's in the 1/4 mile using a stock 87 ECM (with custom programming of course) that uses a 4kb chip program! Contrast that with the 94-95 OBD-1.5 PCM's 64kb chip programming. I personally use an OBD-1.5 PCM in my Turbocharged 3800 Series 2 Fiero that runs low 12's. So to assume just because the computer is older it is limiting power is incorrect.

Anyway, let me give you the facts. First off, there is no tuning software available (that I am aware of anyway) for the 1996 OBD-2 3800 PCM. There is for 1997-up PCMs tho (I can reprogram 1998-newer units). Contrary to popular belief, OBD-2 is not neccessarily more capable concerning power output of the engine. OBD-1.5 systems do have limitations which I will explain.

The 1994-95 OBD-1.5 3800 PCM cannot have the rev limiter set any higher than 6400rpm because of the coding in the OS (operating system). I can, however, disable the rev limiter should you need more RPMs out of it. This computer will not work with a 4T65-E transmission, or any other electronic transmission that uses a pressure control solenoid (the PCM doesn't have an output nor the control software for such a device). This computer is also a little harder to find PC scan tool software that works with it since it was a crossover year. TO be totally truthful this PCM was actually built to OBD-2 standards as GM was gearing up for OBD-2 when these went into production. EFI Live OBD-1 and TunerPro RT's scanners will work with this PCM (using a standard 8192 baud ALDL interface); so will most other hand-held scan tools. THIS IS MY PCM OF CHOICE for swaps using 4T60-E auto transmissions or manual transmissions because of it's low cost, availability, and least amount of wiring required to use it. As mentioned earlier, because it has a removable chip, emulation is easy and relatively cheap.

Now OBD-2 is nice because it will work with a 4T65-E trans (97-up only) and there are now vendors making stand-alone 2 1/16" gauges that have scanning capability (they can be set up to display certain data readouts like KR and O2 voltage) that work with these computers. So if you are looking for something you can use all of these new aftermarket gadgets with, then go with the OBD-2 unit. Just be aware there will be more wiring required in order to use one vs. an OBD-1.5 PCM, and there is currently no emulation support for the OBD-2 box (the hardware is available ($$$) but no software yet).

Now having said all of that, I would advise you choose one of the above PCMs for a manual trans swap. The 96 unit you have cannot be reprogrammed and I wouldn't bother using the 93 OBD-1 computer when the 94-95 OBD1.5 units are much easier for me to reprogram to work with the Series 2 engines. Don't get me wrong, I can reprogram a 93 PCM work with a Series 2; but I have spent a lot more time working with the 94-95 code adding tables and such to my tuning software. The swap you have planned using the 4T65-E trans will require the use of a 97-up box; but I currently only support 98-up boxes.

Cost to reprogram an OBD-1.5 chip (mem-cal) you send me will run you $50.
Cost to reprogram an OBD-2 PCM you send me will run you $80 + return shipping.

There are additional options available for OBD-1.5 like a mem-cal adapter option which will allow you to swap out individual EPROM chips without needing to have the mem-cal reprogrammed (useful for street/strip applications so you can swap out a street chip for a race chip if and when you go to the track, etc). Ask me for details.

NO SPOOFING of either type PCM will be required if you use my custom programming.

-ryan

The Dark Side of Will · Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:28 pm

Is the 94-5 computer that you like the same one used on the MAF 3100's of that vintage? Does it look like a Northstar computer with red, white and blue 32 pin plugs, not for engine bay use?

Jinxmutt · Post by **Jinxmutt** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:18 pm

This is the PCM I use, also the one Sinister mentions above, with the adapter installed for quick and easy chip swapping.

If you disable the EGR, you can also find a post i made on here for logging 0-5v wideband input. I wired my LC-1 directly to the PCM and reworked a formula for TunerPro RT

Sinister Fiero · Post by **Sinister Fiero** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:40 pm

The Dark Side of Will wrote:Is the 94-5 computer that you like the same one used on the MAF 3100's of that vintage? Does it look like a Northstar computer with red, white and blue 32 pin plugs, not for engine bay use?

The 94-95 3100 MAF based PCM used in most GM cars is an underhood flash-based OBD-1.5 box which is very similar to the LT1 PCM. There was a 7730 look-alike used with the 3100 in 94-95 Buick Century's and Olds Ciera's that uses the SAME CODE ($1FA) as most of the 1994-95 3.4 DOHC underhood boxes. I say most because I have found several chip programs used in 95 3.4 DOHC boxes that use the $2E code which doesn't yet have any tuning support. The 3100 MAF based OBD-1.5 PCMs are NOT compatible with the 3800.

Below is some more info on the removable chip OBD-1.5 PCMs...

16197428 & 16183247:
1994-95 C/H/G/U Body 3800 TPI vin L, SC vin 1, and 1995 vin K Series 2. (64kb)

16183428:
1994-95 W Body (Regal) 3800 TPI vin L (same board and ROM as above but different case and connectors for underhood use; can use SC chip program; 64kb)

16196387:
1994-95 Buick Century and Olds Cutlass Ciera 3100 V6 SFI MAF 4T60-E ($1FA code mask; 32kb). Inside mount only - 7730 look-alike box.

16196401:
1994-95 W-body LQ1 3.4 DOHC SFI MAF 4T60-E (early uses $1FA, others use $2E code mask; 32kb). Underhood mount - 16149396 look-alike box.

p8ntman442 · Post by **p8ntman442** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:45 pm

I dont understand why you cant put a 450cfm carb on the front of the supercharger and run a 5spd.

txf · Post by **txf** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:44 pm

The guy that I'm doing the 5speed wiring for received a call from Loyde today. He was asked if he was going to buy one of his swap harnesses and computers. When he said no he says Loyde started getting upset with him and started cussing at him and saying that it won't run good, and how no one can program like he can. etc etc etc. Damn I'm glad he's no longer running NTFC.

jelly2m81 · Post by **jelly2m81** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:47 am

txf wrote:The guy that I'm doing the 5speed wiring for received a call from Loyde today. He was asked if he was going to buy one of his swap harnesses and computers. When he said no he says Loyde started getting upset with him and started cussing at him and saying that it won't run good, and how no one can program like he can. etc etc etc. Damn I'm glad he's no longer running NTFC.

^^^ LollerSkatez..... customer service FTW!^^^

I guess we all better look at the swaps we did because they are not working right, Lloyde didn't have anything to do with them, so apparently they aren't susposed to run good.

Think I'll start leaving a plug wire off customers cars now so they conform to Lloyde's dream world.

Speaking of his customer service, one of my customers I did a L67 swap for decided to add an intercooler last summer. ZZP told him to buy the unit from Lloyde. When my customer mentioned this to me I was like " eeeeee....... and told him it was his money, he could buy from whoever he wants"
So when I installed it and tried to fill the IC system, the damn thing wouldn't prime. We pulled the IC pump provided in his kit and sure enough it wouldn't even pump on a bench test.

The customer called lloyde and politely explained the situation and was told " goto ZZP about the pump problem".

Gotta love a guy who thinks he is god of all swaps and sales, but passes the buck as soon as something isn't as it should be. :knob:

Sinister Fiero · Post by **Sinister Fiero** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:55 am

jelly2m8 wrote:
I guess we all better look at the swaps we did because they are not working right, Lloyde didn't have anything to do with them, so apparently they aren't susposed to run good.

Welcome to the club!

Now that you have joined, send me your information and I will make sure we get your membership packet sent out immediately.
:thumbleft:

Jinxmutt · Post by **Jinxmutt** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:49 pm

Slightly on topic here, the OBD2 guys are running 60# injectors and able to tune for an acceptable idle/part throttle. Do you see any problems running a 60# injector on the obd1 setup?