progress on the banshee...

[The Dark Side of Will]

Alright! so, I don't have a ton of pics at the moment, but progress is being made, the engine is out, and I just placed a large order with WOT-tech for studs, head gaskets, and other paraphernalia. Tomorrow, I plan to order the gapless top rings, and for the next hour or so, I'm going to do a bit of research on what to run for the 2nd ring. someone mentioned a napier 2nd might be a good idea, so I'll look into it, but probably stick with a stock style ring.

Call Total Seal. They'll recommend rings for you and you can buy direct... just don't let them sell you a gapless 2nd. They can recommend surface finish specs and even honing techniques to get there. The Northstar has absurdly hard bore liners, but they were able to leverage experience with 2 ring Spec Miata builds, since Miata blocks are also absurdly hard. That's what sent me down the path of aluminum oxide stones instead of silicone carbide. I actually bought some and took them to the shop that honed my block.

I've spoken with Kevin off and on for several years, but everyone there should be basically just as knowledgeable.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Lifting by the trunk latch is... umm... brave?

[ericjon262]

I don't lift by the trunk latch, I pass a chain through holes in the strut tower brace. I'll call total seal later and figure something out.

[ericjon262]

I talked to Kevin, told him my plans, and he didn't want to supply a gapless top ring in 1.2mm for a boosted engine, he said it would be fine N/A, but he recommended a standard top ring, with a napier 2nd. they're on order, and should hopefully be here by the end of the week. in the meantime i am going to start looking at intake plenum and throttle body options.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Huh... that's interesting. I might have to call him about that just to find out more.

[ericjon262]

his voiced his concern about heat transfer away from the ring being diminished after modification to make it gapless. he also said he would be able to get them for me faster(awesome) and cheaper(not as much of a concern) without them being gapless.

[Shaun41178(2)]

I mentioned before stock rings will be fine but hey spend the money.

Also I tried selling my lx9 head studs but maybe you just wanted new ones?

[ericjon262]

I mentioned before stock rings will be fine but hey spend the money.

Also I tried selling my lx9 head studs but maybe you just wanted new ones?

and I never said you were wrong... I don't remember you trying to sell me head studs, but i already have a set so why would I take yours?

in other news, new rings are here sometime tomorrow, head gaskets, timing set, and some other goodies are on order, hopefully hear early next week,

[ericjon262]

I started looking for a better way to incorporate the oil drain into the pan, you can see the old pan and drain below the engine in one of the pictures.

I'm thinking the best placement might actually be to go between the starter and the block, there's quite a bit of room and it gets the drain out of the way of the electrical connections on the back of the starter.

The plan would be to weld a piece of aluminum tubing to the pan, with a fitting above the starter to accept a hose. the tube would intersect the pan at approximately the same angle as my hand in the pictures.

Thoughts?

[Shaun41178(2)]

Left of the oil filter adapter in relation yo the pic.

I didnt use the remote filter mount. I screwed my oil filter right to the block and put my drain between the oil filter and the starter.

I dont have any pics though at the moment. Maybe a search in my threads could turn something up.

I thought I had put my head studs for sale in the mall here but I guess I didn't so thats why you you werent aware.

Maybe I should do that

[The Dark Side of Will]

That's a tight fit that would certainly involve creative fabrication, but clearly is doable.

Can you T into the dipstick tube to dump it in that way?

[ericjon262]

Left of the oil filter adapter in relation yo the pic.

I didnt use the remote filter mount. I screwed my oil filter right to the block and put my drain between the oil filter and the starter.

I dont have any pics though at the moment. Maybe a search in my threads could turn something up.

I thought I had put my head studs for sale in the mall here but I guess I didn't so thats why you you werent aware.

Maybe I should do that

I want to run the adapter, it will make it much easier to route AC lines, and mount a compressor, and most importantly, change the filter.

My old drain was between the starter and filter, I would like for it not to be if I can avoid it.

That's a tight fit that would certainly involve creative fabrication, but clearly is doable.

Can you T into the dipstick tube to dump it in that way?

the dipstick tube is a good idea, but I think it would need to be enlarged quite a bit to support the oil flow.

a 3/4 inch tube almost fits in there without touching the block or the starter, I could flatten the pipe a little bit, and it would clear no problem, or use 5/8, or some combination of the above.







I got the piston rings in, and on the pistons, and the pistons in their respective holes, the top rings are steel, and took way longer than the 2nd rings to gap, the second rings are a napier cut ring.



I painted the valve covers with some aluminum colored paint, hopefully the paint looks good for a longer time than the bare aluminum did.







I also painted the oil pump drive and hold down, I think it looks way better now. all the paint work doesn't help the car run, but I'm waiting on a handful of parts, and it seemed like the best way to make some kind of forward progress.

[ericjon262]

I'm currently racking my brain trying to find the best place to mount the new MS3 pro, I think I'm going to hack the back out of the console and mount it where the stock ECM went, but I'm still contemplating mounting it in the engine compartment near where the stock battery tray was.

I really wanted to run a pi dash, but I don't think I'll be able to, mainly because the Fiero dash won't fit a reasonable size display without enlarging it quite a bit, and I would rather not take on a project like that yet.

one of the other goals of this teardown and rebuild, was to convert to DBW. I hated on DBW quite a bit when I started this swap years ago, but I like it more and more. especially because it opens a ton of doors for different modes of traction and launch control, I'd also bet that I could make a "valet mode" that limits throttle position.

unfortunately, I didn't realize that the MS3 Pro doesn't support DBW by itself and requires an add on controller. a guy in Finland came up with this:

https://www.dbwx2.com/

it's about $385 not including shipping.

https://shop.protoparts.fi/product/798/ ... country=us


it appears to offer pretty good response. I've got a 75mm LS4 TB on the way from Fieroguru that I'll adapt to a manifold, either my custom one, or a one of the plenums I have sitting around the house. my Custom plenum needs work to be made right though, the welding shop who put it together for me warped the hell out of it, I had it machined "flat" and then none of the bolts lined up, so I'll probably ditch it and start over. another plus to DBW will be packaging. the throttle cable had to run over the top of the plenum, and the LS1 TB I have, has a huge 4" mouth on it, so it required special adapters to make the charge piping fit right.


I'm also trying to have a non-lift-off decklid again, I am both glad I cut the hinge boxes out, and with I hadn't. if I can find a new decklid that isn't butchered like mine is, I'll make a set of hinges like Fieroguru made for his car.

http://www.fiero.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/085829.html

it'll be easier to access spark plugs, and I'll regain a functional trunk of sorts. in doing this, I will have to swap the intake manifold to point towards the transmission, but I think that will only help many of the other packaging problems I have, and make getting AC back way easier. it should also help the engine come onto boost sooner, by shortening the intake tract.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Unless it's a matter of space inside the cabin, get those electronics out of the engine bay. Packaging things in the Fiero engine bay is hard enough to begin with.

[ericjon262]

Unless it's a matter of space inside the cabin, get those electronics out of the engine bay. Packaging things in the Fiero engine bay is hard enough to begin with.

I'm also exploring the option of installing it in the trunk, the problem with that, I wonder if there would be enough. signal strength for a USB connection that far away(the cabin). I also don't want to put it in a spot that will take up the cars already minimal storage space.

[ericjon262]

drunk me ordered the throttle controller the other night, I'd expect it here sometime next week.

in other news, if I want AC again, I'll have to re work my engine mounts



I checked piston to valve clearance,



it was a little tight for my liking, about .060", I would prefer at least .1", so I decided to get a bit sloppy...











while my work was sloppy, I put the effort into making it pretty good, I ended up with 6 almost identical reliefs which should provide plenty of clearance.



I torqued the heads down in 7 passes, starting at 20 ft lbs, and then going up in 10 lb increments up to 80 ft lbs. I then checked torque at 80 ft lbs on each stud 3 times before going to bed. the next morning, I did 2 more passes at 80 ft lbs. no stud movement.

the gen IV 60v6 uses a timing chain tensioner instead of a damper, it bolts onto the earlier engines, so I decided to install one, along with a cryo treated timing set from WOT-Tech. the wire pin is to keep the tension shoe off of the chain during install, it was removed after this picture.





then I installed the timing cover and commenced measuring pushrods. all of the exhaust pushrods measured in between 6.06" and 6.08" at zero lash, and the intakes all measured between 5.63" and 5.64" at zero lash, unfortunately, I can't find a lifter preload spec anywhere... I have seen a few sources that say LS V8's are .040-.050, and others that say .060-.080", and 3800's like .030(I assume the difference is block and head material) but nothing for a 60v6, which has smaller lifters, shorter pushrods, canted valves.and mixed materials for the heads/block.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I torqued the heads down in 7 passes, starting at 20 ft lbs, and then going up in 10 lb increments up to 80 ft lbs. I then checked torque at 80 ft lbs on each stud 3 times before going to bed. the next morning, I did 2 more passes at 80 ft lbs. no stud movement.

the gen IV 60v6 uses a timing chain tensioner instead of a damper, it bolts onto the earlier engines, so I decided to install one, along with a cryo treated timing set from WOT-Tech. the wire pin is to keep the tension shoe off of the chain during install, it was removed after this picture.

then I installed the timing cover and commenced measuring pushrods. all of the exhaust pushrods measured in between 6.06" and 6.08" at zero lash, and the intakes all measured between 5.63" and 5.64" at zero lash, unfortunately, I can't find a lifter preload spec anywhere... I have seen a few sources that say LS V8's are .040-.050, and others that say .060-.080", and 3800's like .030(I assume the difference is block and head material) but nothing for a 60v6, which has smaller lifters, shorter pushrods, canted valves.and mixed materials for the heads/block.

That's pretty snazzy work with the valve reliefs. Those are stock pistons, right?

A re-torque doesn't mean much unless there were thermal cycles in between. What kind of head gaskets are you using?

I didn't know the Gen IV engines used a tensioner... that's interesting. And there's room for it on the earlier block. Do the even earlier V6/60 engines have that same curve on that side of the timing cover mating surface?

What was your measurement setup for pushrods? I thought I saw on FB that you removed the springs from the lifters, thus measuring length on collapsed lifters.

[Shaun41178(2)]

Looking good. Almost there.

[The Dark Side of Will]

then I installed the timing cover and commenced measuring pushrods. all of the exhaust pushrods measured in between 6.06" and 6.08" at zero lash, and the intakes all measured between 5.63" and 5.64" at zero lash, unfortunately, I can't find a lifter preload spec anywhere... I have seen a few sources that say LS V8's are .040-.050, and others that say .060-.080", and 3800's like .030(I assume the difference is block and head material) but nothing for a 60v6, which has smaller lifters, shorter pushrods, canted valves.and mixed materials for the heads/block.

The hydraulic lifters take up for both thermal expansion of the block and heads as well as wear in the valvetrain components over time.

Thermal growth of the block and heads will tend to plunge the lifters less; the pushrods have hot oil running through them, so they will expand as well, mitigating the thermal growth of the block/head.
Wear on the valve head & seat will tend to plunge the lifter more.
Wear on the valve tip & rocker tip will tend to plunge the lifter less.
Wear on the pushrod ends and rocker/lifter sockets will plunge the lifter less, but those interfaces are typically well lubricated.

How much travel does the lifter have? Just put it in the middle of its travel? As long as there's "enough" lifter preload, it really doesn't matter how much there actually is.

You can look at the CTE's of cast iron and cast aluminum, the height of the block deck above the lifter socket and the height of the cylinder head above the deck surface and come up with a thermal growth estimate for both the block/head and the pushrod that will be close enough to give you a minimum.

[ericjon262]

That's pretty snazzy work with the valve reliefs. Those are stock pistons, right?

thanks, and yep, stock pistons.

A re-torque doesn't mean much unless there were thermal cycles in between. What kind of head gaskets are you using?

agreed, the re-torques were more for my own personal re-assurance that I didn't miss anything. the head gaskets are .060 Cometics, which supposedly do not require a re-torque, I'll be performing a re-torque after a couple of heat cycles.

I didn't know the Gen IV engines used a tensioner... that's interesting. And there's room for it on the earlier block. Do the even earlier V6/60 engines have that same curve on that side of the timing cover mating surface?

I'm pretty sure all of the block faces are pretty much the same except that gen1/2 don't have a thrust plate for the roller cam.

What was your measurement setup for pushrods? I thought I saw on FB that you removed the springs from the lifters, thus measuring length on collapsed lifters.

I did remove the springs from one lifter, that was to keep it from collapsing while taking the piston to valve clearance measurements(zero lash). for the length measurements, I used complete lifters, I torqued a rocker down with an adjustable pushrod, and very carefully adjusted the pushrod back and forth until I reached zero lash, given the high level of consistency between measurements, and the repeatability of the measurements I think I can consider the numbers accurate.

The hydraulic lifters take up for both thermal expansion of the block and heads as well as wear in the valvetrain components over time.

Thermal growth of the block and heads will tend to plunge the lifters less; the pushrods have hot oil running through them, so they will expand as well, mitigating the thermal growth of the block/head.
Wear on the valve head & seat will tend to plunge the lifter more.
Wear on the valve tip & rocker tip will tend to plunge the lifter less.
Wear on the pushrod ends and rocker/lifter sockets will plunge the lifter less, but those interfaces are typically well lubricated.

How much travel does the lifter have? Just put it in the middle of its travel? As long as there's "enough" lifter preload, it really doesn't matter how much there actually is.

You can look at the CTE's of cast iron and cast aluminum, the height of the block deck above the lifter socket and the height of the cylinder head above the deck surface and come up with a thermal growth estimate for both the block/head and the pushrod that will be close enough to give you a minimum.

I've seen lots of different thought processes, the only consistency is that not enough will be noisy (duh)

apparently some guys run as much as .1" preload on LS7 lifters, the thought process being that the oil will become aerated, and more preload means less oil, less oil means less air, less air means less compression.

a concern I have, is piston to valve clearance. with zero lash, I have plenty of room. too much lifter preload could begin to close that clearance when the engine has oil pressure forcing the plunger up, or maybe I'm overthinking this. I'll measure the travel later today.

Edit:ok, so my valvesprings have about 300# open force,and the spring has a 1.6 mechanical advantage on the lifter... it would take some ridiculous oil pressure to overcome that, I don't know where my head was thinking could be a concern...