London cops aren't fucking around.

[crzyone]

I think the American govt can only go so far before the public knows what they are doing and start sniping presidents....

[The Dark Side of Will]

Truth is that if we just got out of their business things would likely go away

This is naive to the point of being laughable. I don't mean this statement by itself, but the attitude it represents. There has been one example posted about this already.
"Maybe Hitler will leave us alone if we stop shipping supplies to his enemies". Ridiculous

[DiggityBiggity]

Again, however... I do believe their are people out there that hate.. but in these last instances of terror.. I think it was the people in current power who took advantage of this situation.. saw the tragedy coming.. and used it as a new Pearl Harbor.. in order to lie us into a war, in order to give them political capitol.. and a shit load of money

Your Paranoid Leader

DiggityBiggity

[EBSB52]

Truth is that if we just got out of their business things would likely go away

This is naive to the point of being laughable. I don't mean this statement by itself, but the attitude it represents. There has been one example posted about this already.
"Maybe Hitler will leave us alone if we stop shipping supplies to his enemies". Ridiculous

This is naive to the point of being laughable.

See, we're respectfully exchanging ideas and opinions and you have to be a dickwipe about it and fag it all up. Why?


I don't mean this statement by itself, but the attitude it represents.

WHat's the difference?

There has been one example posted about this already.

So what? Is there a limit? Post it and expound.

"Maybe Hitler will leave us alone if we stop shipping supplies to his enemies".

Comapring Hitler to the Iraqis or to the insurgents is out of context. I can see comparing Hitler to, oh, let's say, your president.

What impact did the establishment of Israel in 1948 have on the Muslim Arabs? Not to any American that thinks from their own perspective, but to the other side. There has been a war going between the Arabs and the Anglo man for 500 years anyway, but the establishment of Israel punctuated it and then they punctuated back several times, most notably 9/11.

This is a no-winner on all sides, but we're supposed to have the sense to understand this and play the adult role..... we haven't and are as bad as they are. 9/11 wasn't an attack but a counter-attack and they will continue until someone walks away. Most of the rest of the world knows this, we don't.

We still have this ignorant mentality that we're fighting a country, the country will be defeated and surrender. Truth is we're fighting a religion with members all over the world, some of which are willing to die for the cause. So your idea is to trade fatalities and huge sums of money until we can die / spemd them out? Brilliant.

Ridiculous

Moron.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Again, however... I do believe their are people out there that hate.. but in these last instances of terror.. I think it was the people in current power who took advantage of this situation.. saw the tragedy coming.. and used it as a new Pearl Harbor.. in order to lie us into a war, in order to give them political capitol.. and a shit load of money

Your Paranoid Leader

DiggityBiggity

Under the influence of the Illuminati, no doubt.

[The Dark Side of Will]

"Maybe Hitler will leave us alone if we stop shipping supplies to his enemies".

Comapring Hitler to the Iraqis or to the insurgents is out of context. I can see comparing Hitler to, oh, let's say, your president.

Hitler was a madman who didn't care how many people he killed in the furtherance of his cause. Osama Bin Laden is... a person under extraodrinary duress who doesn't care how many people he kills in the furtherance of his cause.

What impact did the establishment of Israel in 1948 have on the Muslim Arabs? Not to any American that thinks from their own perspective, but to the other side. There has been a war going between the Arabs and the Anglo man for 500 years anyway, but the establishment of Israel punctuated it and then they punctuated back several times, most notably 9/11.

One could make the same argument about the establishment of all middle eastern borders... How do you think that Sunni and Shia and Kurd all got established in the same country... it wasn't by choice. Don't go heaping blame on the US for violence in a region that's been at war with itself for thousands of years.

This is a no-winner on all sides, but we're supposed to have the sense to understand this and play the adult role..... we haven't and are as bad as they are. 9/11 wasn't an attack but a counter-attack and they will continue until someone walks away. Most of the rest of the world knows
this, we don't.

If someone is willing to die for their cause, and that cause is killing you, walking away will just make him chase you. It won't stop violence and will only end up hurting you more than if you had just put a couple chunks of lead in him in the first place.

What is involved in playing the adult role? Ignoring the WTC attacks? Sitting and waiting for more? Please, sir, may I have another?

We still have this ignorant mentality that we're fighting a country, the country will be defeated and surrender. Truth is we're fighting a religion with members all over the world, some of which are willing to die for the cause. So your idea is to trade fatalities and huge sums of money until we can die / spemd them out? Brilliant.

I agree that the mentality of traditional warfare doesn't necessarily work when fighting religious extremists. We can't eradicate them... we'll have to make their breeding grounds infertile. Discontent breeds this sort of hate, so improving quality of life wherever we go will go a long way toward that goal.

We are NOT fighting Islam. We are fighting militant religious extremists who twist the tenets of their religion to evil ends. Organized Islam condemns terrorist activity.

[DiggityBiggity]

I think he was trying to say that our President is more like Hitler than the Iraqis... and guess what..I agree..

Remember, Iraq had nothing to do with 9.11, so these people who are killing Americans in Iraq.. are doing so, to defend their country from an invasion.. who is invading? WE ARE! The United States.. and President Bush doesn't care how many innocents die.. so long as he gains political capitol, and billions of dollars in war money, through Caryle, and his Vice President through Halliburton... and the rest of the Project For a New American Centuries goonies get their fair share, everything will continue as planned..

Your Paranoid Leader

Diggity"Look at things from their wallets"Biggity

[The Dark Side of Will]

Remember, Iraq had nothing to do with 9.11, so these people who are killing Americans in Iraq.. are doing so, to defend their country from an invasion.. who is invading?

We've been over this before, but you're so stuck on your point of view that you refuse to accept that Iraqis are NOT responsible for most of the attacks. Border control, remember?

[DiggityBiggity]

I know they aren't responsible.. but we wouldn't be getting blown up by anyone.. if we didn't illegally invade the country..

Your Paranoid Leader

DiggityBiggity

[The Dark Side of Will]

The numbers "9" and "11" ring a bell?

[DiggityBiggity]

But do you see what you just did.. you once again brought IRAQ and 9.11 together.. STOP IT!! We should not be in IRAQ because of 9.11..

Your Paranoid Leader

Diggity"Stop it.. they are not related in any way"Biggity

[EBSB52]

This series of posts totally exemplifies my point. You asserted an inflammatory thread, I countered and upped it a bit, then you contered with a constructive, well-written reply w/o any defamation - I will follow suit. People's egos at all levels are fragile like this, even at a world level, so calm, intelligent discussion followed by the same kinds of actions leads to peace..... assuming peace is the agenda.



Hitler was a madman who didn't care how many people he killed in the furtherance of his cause. Osama Bin Laden is... a person under extraodrinary duress who doesn't care how many people he kills in the furtherance of his cause.

I was saying that comparing Hitler to the Iraqi's or the insurgents wasn't valid. Hiltler's agenda was to overtake the world thru invasion and inhilation, the insurgents just want the Christians to stay out of their business. It is, however somewhat fair to compare Hitler to Bush, as his agenda is Imperialistic in scope. What is OBL's cause? Wasn't it fuled by Bush1 invading and then Saudi told OBL no thanks on the help - we have help from the US? OBL had no real beef with the US until after the Gulf War. When we have short periods where we're not in the Arab's ass, they tend to resume killing each other. When we invade their business they join forces and turn against us.

One could make the same argument about the establishment of all middle eastern borders... How do you think that Sunni and Shia and Kurd all got established in the same country... it wasn't by choice. Don't go heaping blame on the US for violence in a region that's been at war with itself for thousands of years.

Thank you, my point is that they are at war with themselves until we poke our beak in there. They would be content with just killing each other until we go and crash the party. It's not our fault for their perpetual discontent, but we make our bed which led to 9/11.

If someone is willing to die for their cause, and that cause is killing you, walking away will just make him chase you. It won't stop violence and will only end up hurting you more than if you had just put a couple chunks of lead in him in the first place.

We made their cause killing us by invading them and screwing around in their region. As for walking away causing a chase, how do you know? Did Viet Nam chase us? Did Korea chase us? If we stated that we have a new Middle East policy where we're just going to buy gas and stay out of their politics, the world would applaude us, the Arabs would ignore us. See, if the big guy down the block hates you, then he declares a truce, are you going to stalk him or leave him alone?

If we stated this new policy, I believe the Middle East would realize anything started would be on their heads. The way it is now the world feels we are at fault so whatever happens reflects badly upon us.

What is involved in playing the adult role? Ignoring the WTC attacks? Sitting and waiting for more? Please, sir, may I have another?

The adult role involves playing the lead in resolving the dispute. WHat is the dispute? Religion, oil, control, etc.... We need to quit calling out their terrorism and they need to quit focusing on our Imperialism, as these are byproducts of the real issues. These issues primarily surround religion, IMO. This war between the Israelis and the Arabs over territory and religion is their business and we need to start backing out and let them resolve these issues. IF they kill each other we can sit from afar and say, 'tisk, tisk.' But at least we don't kill our own and look bad to the world.

As for the 9/11 attacks from OBL, not Iraq, go find OBL and quit attacking/invading a country that was not responsible for it. OBL has more military than Iraq did, so even if OBL was nomadically traveling thru Iraq, Iraq and Hussein had no say in it. We keep looking at 9/11, the first WTC attack, the ship that was bombed by the boat in 98 or so (can't think of the name), the MArine barracks, and other attacks as not being provoked. These are counter attacks from both sides. Kinda hard to claim victimhood when do more killing than do they.

I agree that the mentality of traditional warfare doesn't necessarily work when fighting religious extremists. We can't eradicate them... we'll have to make their breeding grounds infertile. Discontent breeds this sort of hate, so improving quality of life wherever we go will go a long way toward that goal.

How do we make their breeding grounds infertile? Is this inhilation? Improving quality of life thru forced Christianity? Yet another act of ethnocentric behavior on our part. We don't have the right and they're not playing. We keep trying to shove a golf ball thru a garden hose, which will lead to eternal death for our militayr kids.

We are NOT fighting Islam. We are fighting militant religious extremists who twist the tenets of their religion to evil ends. Organized Islam condemns terrorist activity.

We are fighting extremist groups that are bound by the Muslim religion. Have you heard of any of this terrorism being performed by non-Muslim extremists? This contract is constant thriughout the world and is their central theme and justification for their acts.

The conservative right continues to refuse the believe that this is a religious war; Christians vs the Muslims, but with our influence in Israel it's highly obvious that there is a religious component.

[EBSB52]

The numbers "9" and "11" ring a bell?

I bet we ran around saying, "Remember Pearl Harbour" everytime someone complained about Japanese-American internment. This throwing around of 9/11 isn't reasonable and prudent as license to commit whatever atrocities we decide to do. When will it become cliche as did the Pearl Harbour statement?

Again, not to compare Pearl Harbor to 9/11, as they're totally different. Chantings of 9/11 are very tired to me tho.

[Kohburn]

"Maybe Hitler will leave us alone if we stop shipping supplies to his enemies".

Comapring Hitler to the Iraqis or to the insurgents is out of context. I can see comparing Hitler to, oh, let's say, your president.

your whole stance now makes sence.. you are Canadian right?
the typical leave them alone and hide and maybe it'll go away ostrich with its head in the sand. Whic if you look at history, time and time again has proved not to work.

And that was back in a time when there was atleast some sence of honor in war.. now war for them is INTENTIONALLY blowing up non militants, as many of them as possible.

[zonyl]

But do you see what you just did.. you once again brought IRAQ and 9.11 together.. STOP IT!! We should not be in IRAQ because of 9.11..

Your Paranoid Leader

Diggity"Stop it.. they are not related in any way"Biggity

[EBSB52]

your whole stance now makes sence.. you are Canadian right?

Your stance now makes sense; you're a Republicannow, right? Oh master of the Ad Hominem, explain what my nationality has to do with anything? BTW, I'm a 43yo born, shall I say it (Gross, ick) American. When I get thru school Iwill be moving tho. Again, has zero to do with this thread.

the typical leave them alone and hide and maybe it'll go away ostrich with its head in the sand.

If you read my post I never said we should run. Not that it matters, but I'm not some lberal pussy as you'd wish I was or would make me out to be. I'm pro-2nd and have a few guns, I skydive, workout constantly and am into cars (of course). Again, this has zero to do with me or you. I'm a process server and am into the law big time, follow US Sup CT changes and trials. I see jackasses go on trial all the time for letting their precious litttle tempers get the best, so I'm just talking from a perspectove of cooler heads.

What I presented was that we strike a sort of truce, get out of their land and their busiuness. The world would look at it as a goodwill gesture for peace. If they ever as much as stepped on our toes for anything the world would back us to go level them. It's not a cowardly position at all. This would require ending our big brother stance with Israel and letting them handle their own war that they promote with us on their side. That is not a chicken-shit stance as you posed, it's one that allows peace. They would find other countries to pick on, primarily within themselves.

Whic if you look at history, time and time again has proved not to work.

Show me historically where it didn't work. Again, show me where it didn't work with similar particulars, not where a country attacked another, etc..... I don't believe you can produce 1. Even if you can, it doesn't mean it won't work here. It is shown that these guys aren't affraid of us or of Russia, so if Russia learned their lessonthen why can't we? Is this another space-race where Russia was unable so we beat them to it?

And that was back in a time when there was atleast some sence of honor in war.. now war for them is INTENTIONALLY blowing up non militants, as many of them as possible.

And we just do it accidentally. War for us is to pick on the smallest countries with some skewed sense of justification. Saddam and Iraq took down the WTC's... er, OBL did but Saddam might have WMD's..... er, wait, we're still looking for them...... er, WTF????? We took a country that had done nothing to us to use as an example and the world thinks we're bullies. So we'll blow up the world, right? We're 5% of the world's population, do you think we're impervious?

[The Dark Side of Will]

But do you see what you just did.. you once again brought IRAQ and 9.11 together.. STOP IT!! We should not be in IRAQ because of 9.11..

No, I refuted your claim that we wouldn't be getting blown up by anyone if we hadn't invaded Iraq.

[Kohburn]

Again, show me where it didn't work with similar particulars, not where a country attacked another, etc..... I don't believe you can produce

thats because war has changed forms drasticly over the last 200 years even.. there is no exact comparison in terms of the form of war - the comparison is in the bigger picture of the political view and the way of dealing with threats even harder to pinpoint than something easy like a country with an army.

as for the rest of what you said.. just wow.. seriously wow.. moving out of this country that you hate so much? have fun

I by no rights claim the US or its policies to be perfect. but I like its resolve and policies more than any other country

damnit - i knew there was a reason i stayed out of O/T in Old Europe

[The Dark Side of Will]

I was saying that comparing Hitler to the Iraqi's or the insurgents wasn't valid. Hiltler's agenda was to overtake the world thru invasion and inhilation, the insurgents just want the Christians to stay out of their business.

OBL has been a terrorist for years and years, even before Gulf War I.
They're not Iraq's insurgents.

We made their cause killing us by invading them and screwing around in their region. As for walking away causing a chase, how do you know?

They've already shown that they can and will bring the fight to our doorstep. It has happened more than twice. What makes you think it won't happen again if we give them breathing room to grow again and restore their forces?
Also, look at the things they are attacking... Did they blow up the Washington monument? Did they blow up the Jefferson memorial? Lincoln Memorial? Did they attack symbols of American history? Of American independence?
NO. They attacked the world trade center and attempted to attack the Pentagon. They attacked symbols of American wealth, prosperity and power. They don't have beef with America... They have a beef with our entire western way of life, extending to our Allies with similar world view, as recently evidenced by the attacks in London.

They recognize that as long the most powerful nations in the world espouse freedom they will always be running like rats not be able to terrorize on a broad scale to effect their political goals, which include the virtual enslavement of people under their radical Muslim rule. How is that different than Hitler?
They are indeed fighting for their religion, but that perticular religion is one that will fight anyone, even mainstream Muslim, not just Christianity. How many of the attacks actually target Americans now? The majority are actually targeting Iraqis. They are trying to sow hate and discontent among the people to make our position untenable. That is how we must fight them. We must make the people sufficiently happy that they won't stand for terrorism. It's already begun, as there has been at least one instance of Iraqi civilians gunning down a terrorist who started shooting up a marketplace.
Current terrorist strategy in Iraq is essentially this: "We are attacking you and making you miserable because the Americans are here. You should hate the Americans and not us". This is obviously a last ditch effort of a seriously weakened force. I don't think the Iraqi people are going to fall for it, though.

If we stated this new policy, I believe the Middle East would realize anything started would be on their heads. The way it is now the world feels we are at fault so whatever happens reflects badly upon us.

This policy is untenable because we now have an obligation to finish what we started and get Iraq back on its feet and able to defend itself from these insurgents and terrorists.
If we pulled out of the ME entirely, how long do you think it would be before the Saudis asked us to come back and help them deal with their twice weekly school bus bomings? It wouldn't take long.

These issues primarily surround religion, IMO.

The violence is driven by religion, all right, but by a variety of religion that is irreconciliable with anything else. There can be no compromise.

This war between the Israelis and the Arabs over territory and religion is their business and we need to start backing out and let them resolve these issues. IF they kill each other we can sit from afar and say, 'tisk, tisk.' But at least we don't kill our own and look bad to the world.

IIRC, Diggitybiggity decried our lack of involvement in Darfur and other genocidal conflicts. If he doesn't have fun with this one... my suspicions will be confirmed.

How do we make their breeding grounds infertile? Is this inhilation? Improving quality of life thru forced Christianity?

Where on earth did this come from? Stop making blind accusations. We're not forcing Christianity on anyone.
I've touched on the "breeding grounds" issue above in this post...
People don't fight unless they're unhappy. It's easy for a Muslim extremist who just emptied the contents of his chamber pot into the street to hate the American way of life. It's much harder for him to do so when he just flushed his toilet and is on his way to the bidet.

[The Dark Side of Will]

It is shown that these guys aren't affraid of us or of Russia, so if Russia learned their lessonthen why can't we? Is this another space-race where Russia was unable so we beat them to it?

<sprays orange juics all over computer screen>
Are you trying to say that Russia pulled out of the 'Stan because they wanted to be friendly?!?

Russia pulled out of Afghanistan because they finally realized, quite simply, that THEY WERE NOT UP TO THE TASK.

Shortly after we went into Afghanistan and accomplished in a matter of weeks what the Russians failed to do in 15 years, a high Russian official (maybe even Putin himself, I don't remember) said something to the effect of "The Americans have revealed the gap between their capabilities and ours and it is vast"