Primer on Gen III/IV Engine Management and Tuning

[The Dark Side of Will]

My dad's finally seen the light and is interested in migrating from SBC's to Gen III/IV enignes. He's located a 5.3 at a nearby yard for a good price and is ready to pull the trigger, EXCEPT...

He has LT1-Edit and TunerCat ($EE mask) and has modified traditional large cap HEI distributors to take the optical pickup. He's running both a TPI 400 Chevy/4L60E and a 500 cid Cadillac/4L80E with LT1 PCM's.

What would he/we have to get in order to have similar capabilities with Gen III/IV computers? How many different computers were used? How many different tuning suites are there? What are their strengths and weaknesses, etc?

Isn't there a hardware mod available for those that allows tune-on-the-fly via installation of an aftermarket daughterboard?

[Honest Don]

Just get hptuners :thumbleft:

[whipped]

LS1 TPI?

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?p=71423

[BigRedDeckSpoiler]

...What would he/we have to get in order to have similar capabilities with Gen III/IV computers? How many different computers were used? How many different tuning suites are there? What are their strengths and weaknesses, etc?

If I understand your question correctly, this might give you an idea.
http://www.tunercat.com/tnr_desc/vdf_sup.html

Note that the OBDII setup is not available from Tunercat any more. They sold the rights to Jet. But you might be able to find a used package.
monodax.com has them from time to time. http://www.monodax.com/forums/forums.php
Tunercat will support their customers who own an existing OBDII package. Every time I look, they have new VDFs.

They also have a VDF editor. (Decide which parameters that you want to be available to tweak, instead of just using their VDF.) I didn't pay a lot of attention to it since it's way beyond where I'm prepared to go, but I'm sure there are some folks here who would dare to tread...

Check out theire home page for all the menus.
www.tunercat.com

[The Dark Side of Will]

Reviewed these threads:

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=8148
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/tpi/3 ... nions.html
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/dfi-e ... d-gen.html

I'd seen a couple of them before, but they were informative. I'd been thinking for a while about doing something similar using the Vortec crank sensor, MSD distributor plug with cam sync, FAST eDist, LS1 coils and 7730.

How many different computers were used on the Gen III's (24x crank wheel)? Is the 0411 the only one, or was the 0411 specific to the Vortec application?
When did they switch from the 24x crank wheel to the 58x crank wheel?

What are the advantages of HPTuners vs. EFI Live? What does EFI Livegive you for the extra $250 over HPT?

The tuning process for the Gen III stuff is much the same as for the flash OBDI PCM's, right? Download image through ALDL connector, modify image, reflash. It requires shutting down and restarting, right?

What I gathered from the threads above is that S10Wildside took a Ramjet bigblock crank trigger wheel, machined out the hub and used the SBC hub from a 4x Vortec 350 wheel in it. He's using the Vortec timing cover with its provision for crank sensor mounting. He used the Vortec distributor ONLY for its cam sync output. This allows the use of the 0411 PCM with the LS1 program (and all its goodies like SFI, CPC, etc) right?

Is he using the stock Vortec sensor? The production LS1 wheel uses TWO back-to-back wheels, each the "inverse" of the other, with TWO sensors side-by-side, but enough smarts in the sensor module that it only sends one signal to the ECM. I @$$ume that the setup he's using just has the Vortec sensor sending the single pulse train to the ECM.

[BigRedDeckSpoiler]

...The tuning process for the Gen III stuff is much the same as for the flash OBDI PCM's, right? Download image through ALDL connector, modify image, reflash. It requires shutting down and restarting, right?

I don't know about the flash OBDI setup, but OBDII does work as you outlined. Download, modify, reflash.
Then key off, wait, restart.

I don't know of anything OBDII that allows tuning "on the fly". Sorry.

On the tunercat page, notice that the VDFs for '99-'05 trucks use the same PCM for the 4.3 as they do for the LS1 based engine.
The 4.3 has crank and cam sensors, and a distributor.
I'm contemplating an LS1 swap in my Sonoma to replace the 4.3. It occurs to me that I can probably reflash the PCM with the appropriate cal file and be good to go.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Does anyone here have the skoop on AJXTCMan's Northstar with LS1 PCM program?

It seems to me that the Vortec program should be adaptible to the '99 and older Northstar, since those engines use a 4x and 1/2x signal from the ICM to PCM for triggering.

[The Dark Side of Will]

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/posts ... ost67.html

The 4.3 cover is different, but the sensor is the same. A new reluctor ring is $10.86 (GM list). Part number 10190917.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/posts ... ost50.html

do you have the part number for the cap incase i come across one?

Sure do. It's 10494292.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/posts ... ost52.html

what year did they start using it(the pcm), or is it all about 2001-ish?

12200411 PCM is 2001 through 2002. After that most vehicles got the 1 meg PCM (not 12200411).

Sweet looking product from AEM:
http://www.aempower.com/ViewCategory.as ... goryID=122
Being from AEM, however, it may require a second mortgage.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Notepad:

A few other links I've been looking at along the way:
http://www.monodax.com/
http://www.monodax.com/forums/forums.php
-Apparently providing support for the TunerCat OBDII setups currently on the market.

http://www.efilive.com/
-Competitor to HPTuners?

http://alldatadiy.com/
-Wiring diagrams and service info

http://198.208.187.182/internet/Vehicle ... t=12200411
-AC Delco application info for 0411 PCM.

Tune on the fly, eh?

I have to throw in some props for Craig Moates RoadRunner PCM, the new Innovate LM2 Wideband Controller, and EFILive. Tuning this engine has been a breeze with this equipment.

All while driving on the highway and never stopping the truck...
- Set up a map for logging spark retard due to knock
- Kept our eyes on the wideband A/F
- Troy dropped MPH to 45, then heavily accelerated to about 6,000RPM
- Watched for spark retard due to knock
- Made appropriate changes to the calibration's High/Low Octane Spark Tables
- Click the RoadRunner's Update button (while still driving)
- "Meep! Meep!" (The sound effect I set that occurs during an update!)
- Clear previous operating data
- Dropped MPH to 45, then heavily accelerated to about 6,000RPM
- and so on...

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=939102
-Pullup Resistors with LS1 tach outputs

http://tunersource.gmblogs.com/Racer-Te ... ech-Topics
-For future use...

[Series8217]

Speaking of all these new fangled computers.. can you just change the cylinder # on them like is done for the 7730, and be able to run them on, say, a 60* V6 with DIS?

[Honest Don]

What are the advantages of HPTuners vs. EFI Live? What does EFI Livegive you for the extra $250 over HPT?

I have an earlier version of EFILive and I'm not really impressed with its abilities but then again, it is an older version and seems to be geared more towards troubleshooting than tuning.

HPtuners on the other hand, is pretty badass. I just picked up my own version recently and its abilities are actually almost overwhelming. Lots of parameters to play with.... It'll be awhile before I can say what all it can do with confidence.

I do know that HPtuners seems to be pretty much the standard around the dyno shops I've been to though. And you can tune on the fly with it.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Speaking of all these new fangled computers.. can you just change the cylinder # on them like is done for the 7730, and be able to run them on, say, a 60* V6 with DIS?

I think the 0411 was also used with the 4.3 for the same years, using a trigger & distributor similar to the 305's/350's.

[whipped]

Speaking of all these new fangled computers.. can you just change the cylinder # on them like is done for the 7730, and be able to run them on, say, a 60* V6 with DIS?

other PCMs like the E67 are used on the cobalt 4cyl, xlr-v, G6, etc. It would be stupid to have any part of the code different other than the calibrations. I think if you got ahold of the binaries for these different ones, it should be pretty easy to do a compare and see what is different in the code. I don't think the tuning software would let you change that, but I could be wrong. Then again, the cylinder select was in the calibration on the OBDI's as well......

[darkhorizon]

The moates roadrunner works with 98-02 ls1/FWD v6 pcms, and not much else.

[The Dark Side of Will]

The moates roadrunner works with 98-02 ls1/FWD v6 pcms, and not much else.

Do you know what ECM part numbers it works with?

I guess I could email him about that, couldn't I...

[Atilla the Fun]

to reply to the O.P., seems you're familiar with LT1Edit, so contact them about LS1Edit, and the improved LS2Edit.
I am NOT one to ask about electronics. But I am fast becoming an expert on 5.3s.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I've heard that LS1 Edit is a little behind the times, but I haven't looked at LS2 Edit.

Just found this, which comments on all three suites:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthr ... ?t=1925095

[Atilla the Fun]

I'll scan in a few pages about the changes, tomorrow morning.

[Atilla the Fun]

I remembered those pages to scan in, I'll put it all in my 5.3 thread. Not just LS2Edit, but lots more, about 1/4 of my collection.

[The Dark Side of Will]

LS1 Tech thread on these tuning packages:
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=995244