Saab '03-'04 6 speed ratios & RPO

[draven]

The HTOB gives you finger height and the depth of the limiting feature in the bellhousing gives you allowable stack height.

Do you have a GMail? I've been collecting these dimensions in a Google Doc.

It's too bad I don't have the high feature V6 crank pattern...

check pm

[FieroWanaBe1]

I would say my application is unique enough that I dont think what you're trying to accomplish will work for me, The LS4 shares the standard LS crank pattern, but at a depth that is flush with the bell housing face (similar to other 4T65 applications). I will not be using the LS4 crankshaft, pushing the face further into the bell-housing.
How does the LFX application differ from the LP9 from the Saab 9-3?

[The Dark Side of Will]

I have heard that the standard FWD bellhousing and the high feature bellhousing on the F40 have slightly different depths.

There shouldn't be any difference between the LP9 and LLT/LFX clutch fitments that I know of.
Now if you're talking LF3/LF4 with a buttload more torque, then you may need a different clutch.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Yes, I'm covering the engineering fee... they ballparked me between 1300-1500$ for design and kit....given that they already make a setup for the LLT/LFX camaro using their 9.5" twin setup, my LF3/LF4 needs aren't too far away...ring gear size and crank bolt pattern will work(given a camaro lfx starter) as is.... just have to get the clutch spline count to 23 by 1" and make sure the stack height is appropriate for the saab F40 trans. They also have pressure straps that keep the intermediate plate rattle to a minimum if not eliminated as opposed to hard neoprene bumpers used elsewhere.

A 9.5" dual disk is going to be close to as heavy as the stock LP9 flywheel and clutch.
I've been working on the Tilton & QM fitments to use a much lighter 7.25" dual disk.

I agree, it's probably not difficult to adapt the Camaro application, though. The more the merrier.

[draven]

A 9.5" dual disk is going to be close to as heavy as the stock LP9 flywheel and clutch.
I've been working on the Tilton & QM fitments to use a much lighter 7.25" dual disk.

I agree, it's probably not difficult to adapt the Camaro application, though. The more the merrier.

Still trying not to thread hijack here but...

Ok at first I was about to balk at your statement about weight given that my notes state the Saab 9-3 turbo flywheel is 27lbs alone which is one of the primary reasons I was looking at anything lighter, including a twin setup.... (I put an oem 25lb fw on my recently resto'd '05 Mazda 6 V6 and it bogs the 220tq V6 down at idle, no Exedy/Spec chromoly option and only a fidanza/spec super lightweight 8lb available)...however while verifying my numbers just now... the LP9 oem DMF flywheel weight is between 12-13lbs, the saab 2.0T FW is 27lbs.... That's actually a nice weight for a street/track setup... Got me thinking about just going with a sachs/oem DMF and performance pressure plate, and spec stage 3+ clutch just to keep the project moving for the time being....my max tq goals are only 550+/-.

Yes I know..."SPEC" but I'm fed up with clutch dealers "ClutchNet" and recently rode in a friends properly broken in spec 3+ 305hp/TD05 98 Eclipse GSX...a little grabby but very livable...

[The Dark Side of Will]

You tangentially approached one of the reasons I'm intent on getting either a QM or Tilton package set up: Most of the clutch providers in the Fiero market are flaky in some way or another, either via a flaw in their product or their business practices. I'm hoping that I can secure a good product from a reputable business that's adaptable to this community's needs.

I handled a Valeo dual disk for a Maserati last weekend. It was lighter than a typical larger diameter single disk, but was still ~210mm disk diameter and 20+# assembled weight. The floating plate was actually vented like a brake rotor, which I found very interesting.

[The Dark Side of Will]

F40 High Feature V6 bellhousing:

Measurements are from the bellhousing mounting face

HTOB face (fully extended): 2.720
HTOB bolt circle: 4.910
HTOB seat: 5.020
Spline start: 1.440
Spline limit: 2.950

Yes, the HTOB face extends almost 1/4" beyond the far end of the splines.

[draven]

Need some opinions from you guys.. while cracking my saab F40 open to install a quaife I figured I'd do Fiero Guru's final drive upgrade as well to allieviate some of the stump pulling characteristics of 1st gear. Guru had a set of 3.348 final drive gears, where he had swapped out 3.09 for his. I was about to buy his set of 3.348 gears, to swap out my 3.762 which would keep me from having to import them from Europe.


He found some pitting on his shafts that might buggar up my bearings so we have more or less both decided to back away from the deal. I still want to swap out the final drive however I'm not sure which would be better for my v6 LF3 situation... the 3.09 or the 3.348 final?

Opinions? Thoughts?

[The Dark Side of Will]

What application is the 3.35 from? I thought the G6's all had 3.55's.

I also thought the Saab V6 apps had 3.55 gears as well. Did you not get yours from the Saab?

[draven]

What application is the 3.35 from? I thought the G6's all had 3.55's.

I also thought the Saab V6 apps had 3.55 gears as well. Did you not get yours from the Saab?

The 3.35 is from a another diesel F40 Vauxhal, they offered them in 3.09 and 3.35

The Saab V6 F40 MU9 has 3.76 final (not verified but through online sources, wiki and 2 others...) how can I verify it for sure by counting revolutions?

[The Dark Side of Will]

Count input vs. output revolutions just like anything else...

[draven]

Will,

Do you have an F40 pulled apart? Trying to locate all the shafts and diff bearing #'s for the saab F40 when I have the quaife installed and the only complete F40 sets I can find are from the UK and they won't part with their part #'s unless I buy a bearing kit of course...

[The Dark Side of Will]

I don't have one pulled apart, no.

I'll be going through that eventually.

[The Dark Side of Will]

This guy seems to think that the '06+ cars received the MU9, while '05- received the MT2... However, he references the 3.55 final. I didn't think the 9-3 had the V6 as early as '05, though.

https://www.saabcentral.com/threads/saa ... pg.223820/

I'm just trying to figure out exactly which years had the MT2 box with 3.91 final. I don't know if that's the '03-'04 only, or all applications of the 4 cylinder 6 speed (which I think was available in parallel with the V6 for several years). Hollander--and thus car-parts.com--does not distinguish between externally identical transmissions with different ratios, so I can't tell there.

ETA: Other people with the same question: https://www.saabscene.com/forum/threads ... -questions

[FieroWanaBe1]

It's my understanding, that only the US 2003-2004 9-3 Aero Trim models recieved the 6 speed manual with the 3.91 Gearing, all other 4 cylinders received the 5 speed. The later the V6 models had the lower final, which aligns with the G6 models, and makes marketing sense to me for GM.
Was the 2006 9-3 Aero available with a 4 cylinder? According to road and track, the 9-3 Aero in 2006 can equipped with a 2.8L V6 as part of the package:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/f ... portcombi/

[The Dark Side of Will]

https://web.archive.org/web/20170926075 ... index.html

'05 is inconclusive... It says the Saab has a 6 speed available, but only for Canaedia and does not mention RPO or FD ratio. That's sort of supported by www.car-parts.com which shows three '05 transmissions in Canada and two in TX.

'06 calls out MU9 for 4 cylinder Saab, but does not mention FD ratio. The singular F40 spec sheet points to MT2 from the G6.

[FieroWanaBe1]

Some good info here.
https://saabwisonline.com/b3/9-3/2006/4 ... r-ratio-2/

Engine codes are listed under trans codes.
6 speed with 3.94 is listed only in the 2004 9-3
2005+ have 3.34, 3.55, and 3.76 for the AWD listed

In my opinion, I am more akin to believing data presented in service records than press data, given the nature of the work, and the proximity to the engineers teams.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Great find!

Yes, the service information is much more credible than marketing information.
Looks like '03-'04 *ONLY* for the 3.91. Thanks!

[FieroWanaBe1]

Gauging interest.

I'm back to being an engineer for a while.
Working on some gear/spline design, have worked with this vendor before, Great guys that are willing to push boundaries.
http://www.profabmachineinc.com/home.html

Looking on showing them one of my F40 Boxes, have them quote some 1-2 gears/shafts cut around the 3:1 range and 2:1 range for the 1-2 split.
Expect to pay $1500 for said gear sets, low run production.
They would most likely be 8620 or 9310 steel, heat treated and shot peened.

Does anyone know how different the input shaft is on the Regal vs G6 transmissions vs Opel Diesel? I could get a few more numbers from the users of those boxes in the FWD car world.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Welcome back!
That's a REALLY good price.

The first input gear will get larger, and the whole shaft will have to be made to accommodate that. I can tell you from experience in advising someone who did this for the 282 that growing the first input gear will have to take clearance to the 1-2 shift fork into account.
The first output gear will get smaller. Packaging things that get smaller is usually easy, but on the output side, you need to keep the synchronizer interface in mind. In the 282, the first output gear is a friction welded assembly, because the synchronizer interface is recessed INSIDE the gear teeth. To make the aforementioned gearset, Houseman machined off the stock teeth, then pressed and welded on their gear. The shift collar then had to be machined for clearance due to the space inside the recess being smaller because the gear diameter was smaller.

The REVERSE output, which is in constant mesh with the first output, will need to get larger as well. Be sure that gear is included for the BOM, engineering and pricing. Also, packaging and interference for the larger reverse output gear needs to be looked at as well.

Can they cut the synchro interfaces? That's not just he synchro dogs/splines, but also the conical interface to the blocker ring.

With the MU9 ratios, a 2.5 first and 1.85 second would be "ideal" from the perspective of consistent RPM drops.
How well that works in the real world also depends on engine torque and final drive ratio.