Extreme stripping out of a fiero?

darkhorizon · Post by **darkhorizon** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:56 pm

I dont think "back halfing" would do much for you, so has anyone ever thought of "front halfing" a fiero, aka modding the front end into a mass of chromoly tube and lightweight parts?

The Dark Side of Will · Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:26 pm

I think that back-halfing would work better... you'd potentially have a lot more room for powertrain and be able to run a 5 link per side "formula style" rear suspension.

CincinnatiFiero · Post by **CincinnatiFiero** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:03 pm

Front halfing would help too. But then why not just build a complete tube frame and hang fiero panels on it. If I was going to re-engineer 80% of my car, may as well go balls out.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:03 pm

What about just wholing it?

I've been seriously contemplating building my own car, from scratch, once my career type job starts. Lots of money, no serious girls, no kids, and an easy house payment. I'd go all out though, target weight around 1500lbs, for a full size 2 seater. I'd probably base it loosely off a Vauxhall VX220 (=Opel Speedster=Lotus Elise). I'm thinking off powertrain options now. A mostly stock 427 LSX seems to be at the top. Cheap, light, and 500hp with stock drivability. Lb/hp around 3, which is better than most every supercar made.

In my opinion, you'd be better off with a better starting point. Like nothing at all. There's only so far you can go with the Fiero. Not that everything is bad, but by redoing parts, you could do better. Less weight, lower CG, more centralized mass, and a better powertrain platform.

darkhorizon · Post by **darkhorizon** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:45 pm

Yes aaron... lets get the tube bender out and make a car...

I was just thinking that it would be realistic to make a new front end, because from my experience scrapping 2 fieros, a fiero without anything in it, aka rolling spaceframe, the front rear balance is more than the completely assembled fiero in reverse.

CincinnatiFiero · Post by **CincinnatiFiero** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:12 pm

I've thought about building car too, some day. My plan was start with a donor car to steal hubs, some suspension, steering etc, so I don't have to start 100% from scratch and since my donor parts would come from the same car i get some ease and compatability. 427 is too torquey for an uber light car imo. I'd like a smaller OHC motor that I can wind out to huge rpms. My car would be more like an Ariel atom. Just more HP.

The Dark Side of Will · Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:23 pm

The problem you run into with, say, a 1,000 HP twin turbo V8 in a 2,000# car is that to stand a ghost of a chance of using that power, you'll need absolutely ridiculous gearing... like 100 MPH in first.

CincinnatiFiero · Post by **CincinnatiFiero** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:59 pm

Well no shift before 60 equalls ridiculous times. You reach a point where light cars stop being faster with more HP. The gentleman who owns Noble (now Rossion) lives out here and I met him at a car show a couple times but he said one of his clients has a 700HP Noble M12. Its not any faster than the newest 450HP factory version on the track. He just EATs tires alive. The added wieght of the bigger turbos and intercoolers threw off the geometry etc. Only thing its good for its highway 65 to 150 pulls.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:05 pm

darkhorizon wrote:Yes aaron... lets get the tube bender out and make a car...

You keep thinking I'm not serious. One more person for me to say "I told you so" too.

whipped · Post by **whipped** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:39 am

I forget the guy's name, but he lived in oregon... gus?

He built a tube frame with fiero body panels... His target weight was like 2200lbs wet. Insane weight reduction. Someone bought the project car, but he was giving away the CAD plans for the tube frame. That's the way to go.

If you're building jigs to build half a car, might as well expand it to the whole car. Plans would get you a head start. Problem is you're probably looking at $2000 worth of steel, plus time. It's not a project for someone who isn't a master welder, cause you'll double that if you can't weld.

fieroguru · Post by **fieroguru** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:25 am

Here is the build thread for Gusshotrods tube chassis fiero.

http://www.fiero.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/048610.html

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355Fiero was the last known owner (he is in Canada) and was trying to sell it for about $2500 US. Very good price if you like starting with someone elses project.

p8ntman442 · Post by **p8ntman442** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:41 am

FFR GTM FTMFW

Did I mention I saw one a month ago on the street.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:59 am

I appreciate the immense amount of work and engineering into that car, but all of that to shave 600lbs off even a loaded Fiero? It's still heavier than a Lotus Elise! Just too much steel, the entire car is steel.

Will, you had mentioned a typical frame guideline is around 600lbs steel, 300 aluminum. Any numbers for titanium? I've heard it's too brittle for automotive frames though. Thoughts?

Atilla the Fun · Post by **Atilla the Fun** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:19 am

Trying to go in sequence,:
Aaron, the 505 horse 427 is the LS7, and could be copied for less than spending $13,000. on the crate engine.
Cincinati seems to want a Honda S2000.
Doing 60 mph in first gear? You mean like the Viper and the 505-horse Z06? A first geared for 60 isn't a problem if you have the torque to do it.
A complete new car design of your own? We already went thru all this 2 months ago in that thread by Mach10. You guys sould go read it. I think it's in Anything goes.
Titanium? Do you know what 500 pounds of it would cost you? It'd survive, all right. But carbon fiber is your hot ticket.

Atilla the Fun · Post by **Atilla the Fun** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:44 am

Nope, it's in Other cars, as How cool would it be?

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:35 pm

Atilla the Fun wrote:Trying to go in sequence,:
Aaron, the 505 horse 427 is the LS7, and could be copied for less than spending $13,000. on the crate engine.
Cincinati seems to want a Honda S2000.
Doing 60 mph in first gear? You mean like the Viper and the 505-horse Z06? A first geared for 60 isn't a problem if you have the torque to do it.
A complete new car design of your own? We already went thru all this 2 months ago in that thread by Mach10. You guys sould go read it. I think it's in Anything goes.
Titanium? Do you know what 500 pounds of it would cost you? It'd survive, all right. But carbon fiber is your hot ticket.

I wouldn't use a LS7, that's why I called it a 427 LSX. I would be happy with a 60mph first, that wouldn't be a problem.

I know it isn't cheap, but I don't exactly go cheap on my projects, so that's ok. I know carbon fiber is the ticket, and I've got a good friend who is good with the stuff. It just intimidates me, that's all.

The Dark Side of Will · Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:11 pm

Aaron wrote:Will, you had mentioned a typical frame guideline is around 600lbs steel, 300 aluminum. Any numbers for titanium? I've heard it's too brittle for automotive frames though. Thoughts?

The Fiero space frame is around 600# (or so I've heard). I would think that the aluminum versions, such as the prototypes GM had Alcoa make, should be around 300#. With the aluminum block 2.8 like Jamie has, a V6 Fiero could have been 2400#.

As far as frames in general go, they should be absolutely as light as they can be while maintaining adequate stiffness. The urban legend about the Lotus 7 is that Colin Chapman built a good stiff frame, then started taking tubes out of it. When it collapsed under its own weight, he put the last tube back.

There can be a good bit of engineering involved in producing a light STIFF spaceframe. A properly triangulated truss structure puts its components in tension or compression but never bending. Gus perhaps could have used .060 wall instead of .125 wall and cut the weight of his frame in half without losing stiffness, as long as it was thoroughly triangulated, but I guess we'll never know about that.

Ever heard of the V7 Corvette? That was a mid-year Vette that was chopped up and turned into a mid-engine monster with 1000 HP TT LSx engine and a Mendeola transaxle. The new frame was basically scratch built. NOTHING in the articles I've read about it mentions anything about torsional stiffness or any analysis whatsoever being done on the frame. If you just look at it you can see that it's an application of a lot of steel and only a little brain power. I wouldn't be surprised if it developed fatigue cracks where the engine compartment joins the passenger compartment.

Rewind a few years and check out the Sport Compact Car USCC that had the Ultima GTR w/ BMW V12 in it. THAT guy knew a few things about frames. Testing torsional stiffness is STOOPIDLY easy if you have the wherewithal to build your own frame, but NOBODY does it. This baffles me completely. The Ultima guy was able to try different things, measure torsional stiffness, and figure out what were the best frame mods for the weight and what weren't. Most guys in that situation would have just welded shit in until it "looked right" and then claimed it was stiffer.

The Dark Side of Will · Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:14 pm

I still think the gains in traction and powertrain packaging would make back-halving a Fiero preferrable to the front-halving it, which, from a drag racing perspective, only has the benefit of weight reduction (and thus easier wheel stands).

p8ntman442 · Post by **p8ntman442** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:29 pm

Bottom line is you run out of road to run any car like this on. So you might as well build a race car.

darkhorizon · Post by **darkhorizon** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm

OK, so lets turn this thread into "what can you take out of a fiero" and still have it not fall apart?