3800SC Series II Question

[leppy_89]

I have a shot at 3800SC Series II.

Here is the info:

1996 Buick Riviera
60,XXX miles ( supposedly )
Has all equipment; also computer and wiring harness
Asking $350 OBO

From this info, and assuming the engine is good, is this

a good deal? It seems to be a decent deal, but it was

brought to my attention from a fellow member that this

engine may have some issues compared to a normal

install. Something about decklid clearance, vacuum lines

maybe, different electronics. Anyone got any info?

[Sinister Fiero]

Very good deal if it only has 60,000 miles on it. I just priced one at Morad Parts that had 74,000 mi on it and they wanted over $1600.00 for just the engine and acc.

There is nothing wrong with the 1996 motors. You can run this in a Fiero as long as you use the right brackets/pulleys/alternator mounting location. The PCM used on this engine can be reprogrammed (I have the tuning software to do it).

-ryan

[CincinnatiFiero]

The guys at morad said the 96 pcm is different that 97-04 is that true Ryan? 96 also used the 4T60-HD right? Leppy is 5speed so it won't matter, but isn't that the case? And the vacuum lines on the blower are different, but another non-issue.

Buy it Leppy, you are lucky I payed $1,200 at morad for more miles.

[leppy_89]

Went and looked at the engine today, and I think I'm buying it.

He has the computer and harness, has all the diagrams ready

for the swap, and has it waiting for me to come pick it up.


Hopefully I'll get it and start cleaning it and begin dreaming.

[Sinister Fiero]

The guys at morad said the 96 pcm is different that 97-04 is that true Ryan? 96 also used the 4T60-HD right? Leppy is 5speed so it won't matter, but isn't that the case?

Yes.

1996 PCMs were used 1-year only, and were the only OBD-2 units that will work with the 4T60-E transmissions with a L67. (1997 L36's were still available with the 4T60-E, but 1997 L67's only came with the 65-E). VATS can be disabled in these PCMs with the currently available tuning software. Just like later PCMs, these units can be reprogrammed to work with manual transmissions.

1997 PCMs were also used 1-year only, all L67 cars came equipped with 4T65-E transmissions. L36's were still available with the 4T60-E. VATS can be disabled in these PCMs with the currently available tuning software.

Starting in model year 1998, all 3800's came with the 4T65-E in FWD applications. Also starting this year, the PCM architecture changed. Gone was the knock module interface chip which was replacable; all new architecture PCMs used "digital" knock sensor interface circuits -- but this also now required CASE Learns to be done any time the PCM, crank sensor, crank, or crank balancer was replaced. 1998-01 PCMs are essentially the same, for the most part. Most Grand Prix applications did not have VATS enabled in the factory programming. Other cars (such as the Regal) had VATS enabled in the factory programming. Currently there is NO tuning software available that can disable the VATS in these PCMs IF it was enabled in the factory programming.

Starting in 2002, all GM FWD V6 applications had VATS enabled in the PCM programming. Currently there is NO tuning software available that can disable the VATS in these PCMs.

Starting in 2003, the 4T65-E trans underwent a fairly major electrical change (amoung several other mechanical changes). The manifold pressure switch assy. was deleted and the way the pressure control was implemented was changed. These electrical changes required specific PCM programming to work properly. You cannot use a 2002-earlier PCM with a 2003-up 4T65-E transmission without making some fairly major modifications.

Starting in 2004, a new PCM architecture was introduced for the Grand Prix 3800 (PCM now had smaller physical size). Most other 3800-powered cars continued using the "older architecture" PCM until 2005. TAPShift was also introduced in 2004; but the TAPShift 4T65-E transmissions are mechanically and hydraulically different than non-TAPShift units. You should NOT attempt to use a non-TAPShift 65-E in a TAPShift application.

[leppy_89]

Thanks for the info Sinister. So I want to re-pin the motor for 98 and up,

but I don't have wiring diagrams. How can I go about getting them?

And I bought the motor today.

Engine being pulled off of my friend Mike's truck.


I don't know whether having the engine sitting on a tire
in their garage damaged it, or they dropped it but it will need replaced.


Intake side.


Side view. Pretty clean.


Shot of the top.


Half-assed mount. Previous ownders gave up on this motor and went to a 400 small block.


One of the few things that needs replacing.


They also managed to snap the connector on the coilpack.


Hate to have the motor sit like that, but that's the way
it will stay until I get my engine stand. Hey, at least
this way the oilpan isn't hitting the ground.

[Aaron]

I have a good set of 3 coils, do you need them?

[leppy_89]

I have a good set of 3 coils, do you need them?

Well, I need at least one for sure. The other two could probably

stand to be replaced. The fun money is kind of low at the moment

after buying the motor. How much you want for them?

[Aaron]

Shipping plus 5 bucks?

[leppy_89]

Shipping plus 5 bucks?

Deal.

And why are you quoted as "retard"?

Ha.

[Aaron]

Cause I've got the best built car here, and everyone knows it, including me. Some don't appreciate my arrogance.

Anyways, my Paypal is AaronZ34@gmail.com. Send me $15, I think that'll cover it. Make sure to include your shipping address with the payment.

[Sinister Fiero]

Couple of things I see I would do before using this engine...

1) Replace the oil pan with an undamaged unit. You should pull it anyway and perform the oil leak repair on it as spelled out on the oil pan leak TSB put out by GM (requires sealing the oil pan to the gasket using RTV sealant; and you will need to do this even if you get a new pan and gasket). You should also pull the pan and make sure the oil pickup was not damaged/bent. If so, replace it.

2) The picture of the rear of the engine you posted reveals this engine has an oil leak at the rear main seal housing (aluminum cover on the back of the engine). Also a common problem with these engines. Get yourself a new rear seal housing gasket and new rear seal and install per mfgr instructions. NOTE: the new rear main seals GM is selling these days should be installed one-way; inspect the new seal for the word "out" molded into it indicating which side faces out, and install per mfgr instructions.

3) Valve cover gaskets should be replaced using the latest GM part. Don't forget to use new valve cover bolt grommets (also sold by GM).

4) Lower intake gaskets should be replaced using the latest GM part. These should be constructed of aluminum. DO NOT install plastic lower intake gaskets -- use the new aluminum gaskets that are available.

5) If you decide to keep the EGR installed in your swap, check the pipe connecting the EGR valve to the lower intake manifold for cracks, especially where it goes into the lower intake. These are prone to cracking in this location which can result in a vacuum leak which will affect idle and fuel trims.

6) As mentioned before/elsewhere, in order to use this engine in a Fiero, you will need to swap out some of the SC drive belt components. You will need to obtain a coil pack/dog bone mount bracket, SC idler pulley, and SC tensioner w/ pulley from a 97-up W-body car that had the 3800 SC engine. The brackets/pulleys you have now will not clear the Fiero engine compartment. The coil pack/dog bone mounting bracket is a large cast iron piece, and I usually cut off the coil pack mounting and dog bone portions of this bracket and relocate the coil pack to a different place in my swaps. The coil pack on your engine should be mounted to an aluminum plate that will unbolt from your engine -- you can reuse this for relocating the coil pack to a different location.

7) The alternator that came on your engine will not be able to stay in the stock mounting location because it will not clear the deck lid. You should seek means of locating it elsewhere (most including myself usually put it in the stock mounting location for the Power Steering Pump since that is not needed in Fiero applications). This requires the tensioner to be modified so it will work with the new belt routing. Some Fiero vendors sell modified tensioner / alternator mounting setups ready to go for Fiero swaps if you want to go that route. Or you can do something on your own based on what you have seen others (like myself) do. You can check my website for pictures of this.

-ryan

[p8ntman442]

Cause I've got the best built car here, and everyone knows it, including me. Some don't appreciate my ignorance

Fixed.

Ryan, thanks for your post that was some good info.

[leppy_89]

Couple of things I see I would do before using this engine...

1) Replace the oil pan with an undamaged unit. You should pull it anyway and perform the oil leak repair on it as spelled out on the oil pan leak TSB put out by GM (requires sealing the oil pan to the gasket using RTV sealant; and you will need to do this even if you get a new pan and gasket). You should also pull the pan and make sure the oil pickup was not damaged/bent. If so, replace it.

2) The picture of the rear of the engine you posted reveals this engine has an oil leak at the rear main seal housing (aluminum cover on the back of the engine). Also a common problem with these engines. Get yourself a new rear seal housing gasket and new rear seal and install per mfgr instructions. NOTE: the new rear main seals GM is selling these days should be installed one-way; inspect the new seal for the word "out" molded into it indicating which side faces out, and install per mfgr instructions.

3) Valve cover gaskets should be replaced using the latest GM part. Don't forget to use new valve cover bolt grommets (also sold by GM).

4) Lower intake gaskets should be replaced using the latest GM part. These should be constructed of aluminum. DO NOT install plastic lower intake gaskets -- use the new aluminum gaskets that are available.

5) If you decide to keep the EGR installed in your swap, check the pipe connecting the EGR valve to the lower intake manifold for cracks, especially where it goes into the lower intake. These are prone to cracking in this location which can result in a vacuum leak which will affect idle and fuel trims.

6) As mentioned before/elsewhere, in order to use this engine in a Fiero, you will need to swap out some of the SC drive belt components. You will need to obtain a coil pack/dog bone mount bracket, SC idler pulley, and SC tensioner w/ pulley from a 97-up W-body car that had the 3800 SC engine. The brackets/pulleys you have now will not clear the Fiero engine compartment. The coil pack/dog bone mounting bracket is a large cast iron peice, and I usually cut off the coil pack mounting and dog bone portions of this bracket and relocate the coil pack to a different place in my swaps. The coil pack on your engine should be mounted to an aluminum plate that will unbolt from your engine -- you can reuse this for relocating the coil pack to a different location.

7) The alternator that came on your engine will not be able to stay in the stock mounting location because it will not clear the deck lid. You should seek means of locating it elsewhere (most including myself usually put it in the stock mounting location for the Power Steering Pump since that is not needed in Fiero applications). This requires the tensioner to be modified so it will work with the new belt routing. Some Fiero vendors sell modified tensioner / alternator mounting setups ready to go for Fiero swaps if you want to go that route. Or you can do something on your own based on what you have seen others (like myself) do. You can check my website for pictures of this.

-ryan

Wow. Thanks for all the info.

1) Yeah I am worried that the pickup got bent, but if it did, I'll buy one. Any particular RTV to use?

2) Where do you see it leaking at? I believe you, just curious as to what lead you to that. I'll replace it.

3) I will replace these as well.

4) Hm, aluminum gaskets? That is interesting. I'll replace them anyway.

5) Yeah I'll be checking the EGR connections. My 2.8's EGR tube was cracked, so I'll be checking these.

6) I was warned of this issue, but if it has to be done it'll be done. There is someone of Old Europe that is selling 97 GTP stuff, so I'll

see if he has the stuff I need.

7) I think I'll take the "do it myself" approach with the bracket. I'll do some research on how to go about making it. I'll see what

way you did it.


Thanks for the info. Its really appreciated. Anymore useful info is always appreciated.

[leppy_89]

So it snowed today and I figured I'd pull out my bag of goodies and start some work

until I get access to my motor tomorrow. So far, here is what I've got. And I'm lost.


This is all the wiring that came with the motor, but I have absolutely no clue what

is "garbage" and what is vital to keep. I'm trying to find out what is needed and not

but in the mean-time I figured I'd see what you guys had to say.

Haven't looked inside yet...


This doesn't look like it will be fun.


Absolute tangled mess.


Delco Electronics something or other.


Fuse block.


Random assortment of connectors?


Yes I'm inside. Yes that's my foot.


Random black box.


At least something that isn't a complete mess..
Looks like it has injector connectors on it.
I believe the rest of this is on the motor still.


?


Trying to get all this garbage organized.

[p8ntman442]

Make a list of what connectors you need for sensors etc. Then Identify those connectors and mark them with some tape or something.

Then pull your ecm connectors apart, and use the pinout for the new harness to identify what wires can be removed. Gut all the useless wire from the ecm connectors and you have a good start.

you should have at least
02, map/f, iac, tps, cts, iat, ac clutch?, fp relay, ignition module, coil pack connectors.

[CincinnatiFiero]

Random, but I have the heat shields for the rear exhaust manifold which appear to be missing in the pic if you want them. I'll bring them next time I am up around there.

[Sinister Fiero]

Random, but I have the heat shields for the rear exhaust manifold which appear to be missing in the pic if you want them. I'll bring them next time I am up around there.

The C/H/G body cars did not receive exhaust manifold heat shields. Only the W-body cars got those. BUT if you have the front manifold heat shield you can donate to the cause, that would be wise to use in the Fiero applications to help shield the firewall insulation from the exhaust heat. FYI: all front manifolds used on FWD Series 2 engines were the same regardless of year and car they were used in.

The rear exhaust manifold used in 1995 L36 and 1996 L36/L67 applications has a different exhaust coupling for the downpipe vs. what was used on later engines. The rear flange on these early engines uses a spring-loaded coupler and doughnut gasket which serves as the flex joint. Later engines went to a flat mounting flange and the stainless steel bellows where the flex joint but those were located in the downpipe. This "early" setup should work fine for a stock L67 swap and give you the flex ability you need in the system.

Also you should be aware the location where the exhaust dump was located on the rear manifold is different between W body cars vs. C/H/G body cars. For this reason, a rear manifold heat shield from a W-body engine will not work on a manifold designed for a C/H/G body engine.

[Sinister Fiero]

Absolute tangled mess.

^^^Most of this looks like an interior harness which won't be needed in your swap.

Delco Electronics something or other.

^^^That is the factory amp for the stereo; part of the interior harness and not needed in the swap.

Fuse block.

^^^Looks like it could be the interior fuse and relay center; won't be needed in the swap.

Random assortment of connectors?

^^^Some of those are PCM connectors and some are for the interior harness. The PCM connectors shown are for a 1992-93 3800 Series 1 application.

Yes I'm inside. Yes that's my foot.

^^^The PCM pictured is for a 1992-93 3800 Series 1 application. I wouldn't use it with a Series 2 engine. I would like to discuss the possibility of buying it off of you tho; let me know if you are interested.

Random black box.

^^^Could be the HVAC or Body computer; nothing that would be needed in the swap.

At least something that isn't a complete mess..
Looks like it has injector connectors on it.
I believe the rest of this is on the motor still.

^^^This harness has been cut, but it does appear to be from a Series 2 engine (based on the type of connectors I see for the TPS and CTS).

?

[/quote]
^^^More interior harness -- not needed.

It looks like you got a very small portion of wiring from the donor car this engine came out of. The rest appears to be from a 1992-93 C/H body car. If you are using a manual transmission in this swap of yours, you might as well call up Morad Parts Company and order yourself a PCM and wiring harness from a 1998-01 W-body car. NOTE: You can get a harness/PCM from a L36 (3800 Series 2 n/a) engine and it will work on your supercharged engine. The price for L36 harnesses is cheaper vs. L67 units. I can tell you what needs to be done in order to use the L36 harness on an L67 in a Fiero swap. I can also reprogram the PCM for your swap if you need that done. W-body wiring harnesses are much easier to convert for use in Fiero swaps vs. harnesses from C/H/G body cars; FYI. I have wiring instructions for this conversion you can download from my website: http://www.gmtuners.com .

Don't throw away the wiring you got with this engine until you are done with the swap. Might need some pieces from it to do your swap.

-ryan

[p8ntman442]

He also has all the harness attached to the engine. Which looks complete.