My Grassroots Motorsports $2009 build

[Nashco]

I don't want multiple threads going, so I won't be documenting much over here on my build, but thought you guys might be interested in the Fiero build. I'm planning on attending the GRM $2009 West Coast event and the build will be an AWD Fiero hybrid. I'm pretty sure this is the first AWD Fiero (that isn't on a 4x4 truck frame) and also pretty sure it's the first Fiero hybrid, so it's not exaclty a slam-dunk of a design. I've been doing lots of homework though, and I'm trying to pull as many parts as possible out of the parts bin so that I just have to do some hacking and wacking for new mounts, etc. with little true design work.

So, if you're interested, check it out:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/ ... 519/page1/

I'll do a very thorough job of detailing all the parts used with lots and lots of pictures as the design comes closer to completion and I've proven what will work. There will be a website detailing the parts bin project, all in due time.

Bryce

[Honest Don]

Thats pretty darn cool, actually. Keep us updated!

[CincinnatiFiero]

Wow thats pretty neat, bump this thread to remind us to look. That is wild, I had no idea an S10 electric existed. Are you concerned about the weight increase for just a 114HP gain?

[Nashco]

Wow thats pretty neat, bump this thread to remind us to look. That is wild, I had no idea an S10 electric existed. Are you concerned about the weight increase for just a 114HP gain?

Just 114 hp? Sheesh, tough crowd. Sure, I'm adding weight, but it's not "just" for 114 hp...I could add a bottle of nitrous to the 2.8 to get the same horsepower and it wouldn't be anything like this project is. The car will be stripped down for minimum weight as much as possible for the $2009 challenge (and to remain legal). Minimum weight is way, way down on my list of priorities, to be honest. First priority is to make it work before August, second priority is to make it within the budget, etc.

Bryce

[CincinnatiFiero]

I'm not knocking you at all, just wondering your rationale.

Hasn't pontiackid and similar started like 30 threads about awd fieros on .NL? Here it is.







(bait set)

[Nashco]

I'm not knocking you at all, just wondering your rationale.

The idea is to make an AWD Fiero hybrid. I can use it as an EV only for short ranges, gas only for long range driving, or hybrid for maximum power and performance. At first glance, this seems like a hell of a complex build, but I'm optimistic that some parts bin scrounging and plenty of digging around on the internet will make it happen. I'm hoping to show you Florida-bound folks that we West Coasters have something fresh to bring to the table and also hope to bring attention to budget electric stuff that is fun. There are a lot of people that build cheap EVs out there, but they usually involve things like Geos with forklift motors that can't go fast enough to get on the highway and people tend to scoff at them. Cheap EVs don't have to be slow and boring!

To be clear, the goal is NOT to make a fast Fiero. I could do that a hell of a lot easier and cheaper without all the electric motor shenanigans. The rationale is stated above. I have the motor, inverter, car, and ambition. Why not? Of course, after the $2009 challenge is over, there's no reason why I can't apply everything most people do to the Fiero normally with another grand or two to spend. Northstar? Ecotec? 3400? Another electric motor in the rear?

Bryce

[lucky]

Damn. Nice work Bryce.

[Nashco]

Updates:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/ ... 519/page1/

[p8ntman442]

With the extra weight up front, and HP, will you be adding gripier tires and or power steering?

[Nashco]

With the extra weight up front, and HP, will you be adding gripier tires and or power steering?

No plans for power steering, at least not for the $2009 challenge. If/When I do an engine swap after the event, then I'd probably entertain keeping the power steering pump on the engine and going to the Corvette R&P or something similar. I just don't have the time/money for the $2009 budget to do it. This event is definitely about making compromises (handling, power, and looks) with the budget.

"Gripier" tires? I'll have the stickiest tires I can fit in the budget, but not sure what that will be yet. Right now I've got some used up 15" Falken RT615s for free, some ancient 17" Kumho MXs that I'd have to assign fair market value to (had them on my '88 GT that's been sitting dormant for many years), and some friggin huge Hoosier road race slicks on Diamond 15x10s for $200. Unfortunately, I have to use DOT rated tires for the autocross, so I could only use the Hoosiers in the drags, which is horrible overkill for the power ratings I've got and would probably just slow me down because they're so heavy.

Right now, the used up RT615s on stock lace wheels are looking like my best option. The 17s look cool but I doubt I'll have room in the budget for them.

Bryce

[Nashco]

Updates:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/ ... 519/page2/

[CincinnatiFiero]

Are you going to use the gasoline motor to try to sustain the batteries a hair longer? Obviously the fiero alternator won't be able re-charge the batteries fully, but a higher output alt (someone was talking about a GM delivery truck alt, probably a sub $50 item) could keep some charge in the batteries and since you'll be racing it, you'll be turning big RPMs working the alternator hard.

[Nashco]

Are you going to use the gasoline motor to try to sustain the batteries a hair longer? Obviously the fiero alternator won't be able re-charge the batteries fully, but a higher output alt (someone was talking about a GM delivery truck alt, probably a sub $50 item) could keep some charge in the batteries and since you'll be racing it, you'll be turning big RPMs working the alternator hard.

It's an AC motor, so it will charge the batteries through regenerative braking with the inverter that I have. Also, if I run it as a charge depleting hybrid (range-extending, kind of like the new Volt) then I can just use a wall charger on the batteries when I get home. With that said, the batteries I've got aren't big enough to get me very far in a car this heavy and inefficient, the Prius packs are very small by electric car standards.

Bryce

[Nashco]

Updates:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/ ... 519/page3/

[The Dark Side of Will]

Got more detail on the UCA mounts? Are they attached at the bottom? All I can see is that they're 90 degree brackets bolted to the body on one side with the control arm sitting on the othe side.

IOW, from what I can see I think you need to gusset them a LOT, but I can't see everything.

[Nashco]

Got more detail on the UCA mounts? Are they attached at the bottom? All I can see is that they're 90 degree brackets bolted to the body on one side with the control arm sitting on the othe side.

IOW, from what I can see I think you need to gusset them a LOT, but I can't see everything.

I'm guessing you didn't look at the first page in that thread, or at least skimmed over the pictures.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/ ... 519/page1/

You can see the formed plates I started with here:







As you can see, those brackets have rolled edges and a huge-ass dart in the middle of the bracket, way better than any gussets I could have welded in myself. Also, those are 5/16" plate IIRC, so it's pretty beefy stuff compared to the stock upper control arm mount on the cradle. There are five 1/2", grade 8 bolts holding each upper control arm mount. The bolts pass through some steel pipe that is welded into the chassis, and on the inboard side the bolts have (prevailing torque) pinch nuts on them. The whole set up turned out really good, especially considering I started with some scrapped brackets I had laying around the shop.

The upper control arms are bone stock, including the pivot shaft. It took a lot of guess and check to get full suspension travel without having the strut interfere with the control arm or mount while still getting a stock-ish motion ratio and maintaining geometry with respect to the upper strut mount...but in the end it worked out quite well, I think.



There will be more pictures in the future, as I said above I plan on documenting this on a website...but first I need to get it operational and tested to make sure I'm not showing somebody how to do something that actually didn't work out.

Bryce

[The Dark Side of Will]

Something to consider: On the outside wheel, the UCA force is actually going to be pulling that mount AWAY from the body.

[Nashco]

Something to consider: On the outside wheel, the UCA force is actually going to be pulling that mount AWAY from the body.

Yes, I know...I took a statics class too, Will. I'm confident that the bracket isn't going anywhere, whether you're pulling on it or pushing on it. My testing should help to support that theory, but since it's still sitting in the garage I can't say much yet.

Like I said, there are five half inch bolts that pass through steel pipes that are welded into the chassis. Each pipe is welded the full circumference at two points. That's ten welds with ~2" of weld bead each, for a total of about 20" of weld bead resisting tear out. The pinch nuts are also flanged, the flange being just slightly larger than the pipe OD (in the case of tear-out). I'm still mounting the control arms with the two stock bolts and nut plate in the stock position, which are something like 8 or 10 mm bolts used in single shear. Do you think I need more to support the upper control arm? What do you recommend and why?

Bryce

[The Dark Side of Will]

I would say do a pull test and see, you statics-taking mofo, you. Got a hydraulic ram from a cherry picker and an indicator with magnetic base?

I'd like to see something at the bottom of the L-bracket so you're not loading the upper bolts in bending. Mass-efficient structures are loaded in tension or compression.

Not clear on how you've welded the pipe into the body...

[Nashco]

I would say do a pull test and see, you statics-taking mofo, you. Got a hydraulic ram from a cherry picker and an indicator with magnetic base?

No, but I can rag on it and see if it goes "bang" or not. They don't teach that one in school, and I must say it's generally frowned upon at work.

I'd like to see something at the bottom of the L-bracket so you're not loading the upper bolts in bending. Mass-efficient structures are loaded in tension or compression.

You think too hard Will, that must be the hang up here. This *isn't* mass efficient. The original upper control arm probably weighed a fourth of what this thing weighs. Of course, the original was integrated into the bump stop, spring cup, damper mount, etc. so it's hard to pinpoint, but as I said, this thing is overkill.

Not clear on how you've welded the pipe into the body...

...with a welder. In my garage. On a Saturday. I'm not sure what you're getting at...? I drilled a hole through the chassis big enough for the pipe to fit in. I cut the pipe to the desired length. I welded the pipe where it intersected with chassis (two places per pipe).

If you post a video of you doing a pull test on one of your Northstar connecting rod assemblies, I'll post a video of me doing a pull test on both of my AWD control arm mounts. Sound fair?

Bryce