Government stupidity

[Atilla the Fun]

So today at Pick-N-Pull, there were acres of recent additions, every one of them sporting a sticker saying there was extensive internal engine damage due to running the engine with powdered glass in place of the oil.

[Atilla the Fun]

By the way, the rest of the sticker said this was because these cars were traded in under the program to pay out $3000 or so for those buying a new car that got another 3 mpg.

[Blue Shift]

Yeah the C4C program was complete, and utter bullshit.

Nothing like making every junker worth 4500 bucks, so no car yard in the country could get their hands on a single running engine. Not to mention it could have been a GREAT source of still running, serviceable engines to replace clapped out, smoking engines in all the cars people never intended to get rid of. I, for one, wasn't in a place to run out and go throw down on a new car. Fixing one smoker on the cheap would likely make a proportionally larger difference than luring the people to buy Hondas and Toyotas that get a couple more MPG.

Either way, I think both sides could have gotten what they want out of it by not mandating the destruction of the engine. A solution could be found to satisfy the powers that be that the vehicle will be disassembled for parts (and not returned to the road) without needlessly ruining the most valuable part.

[ALSO]: They should have limited the program to American made cars, if they were at all serious about boosting the failing economy.

[pontiackid86]

[ALSO]: They should have limited the program to American made cars, if they were at all serious about boosting the failing economy.

I also agree with the statement above, By them doing this they only helped japans economey because most of the money was shoveled out to Toyota and Honda. Had they mandated that the money go to the big 3 and narrow it down to you could only but cars such as the Aveo Cobalt HHR and there smaller fuel efficent models and all the competeters models of the big 3, I think C4C would have been a sucess. But since most of the cars sold was Toyota Camerys and Corollas the only thing we saw out of all thoes sales was sales and other applicable taxes. There was a deal with Nissan that if you bought the Nissan Versa for the C4C program not only did they knock off a very big chuck of the price they also gave you a factory rebate along with your $4500 trade in and you yould get a brand new versa for only $1000 out of pocket.

[pontiackid86]

YOU NEED TO LOOK DEEPER!! WHO WAS REALLY PROFITING FROM THIS???? THE BANKS???

THIS WAS NOT ABOUT CARS! NOT ABOUT GOING GREEN!! LOOK DEEPER!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw

Please try to grow a brain before you get into politic debates.

[slowpoke]

http://www.toyotageorgetown.com That's toyotas
http://www.ohio.honda.com 12500 jobs there
Nissan has plants in Canton, Miss. and in Smyrna, Tenn.

Pontiackid your a dumbass. Why the big three?

I agree they should have left the engines available for salvage, but many of the "foreign cars" are keeping Americans working these days.

[pontiackid86]

I been in Politics for 10 years asshole..... i can run this country better then obama .

Please dont give me nightmares. Just thinking of this gives me the chills.

[pontiackid86]

http://www.toyotageorgetown.com That's toyotas
http://www.ohio.honda.com 12500 jobs there
Nissan has plants in Canton, Miss. and in Smyrna, Tenn.

Pontiackid your a dumbass. Why the big three?

I agree they should have left the engines available for salvage, but many of the "foreign cars" are keeping Americans working these days.

I say the big 3 because of 2 reasons. The cars are made designed and produced here in the USA. There might be toyota honda and nissan plants here in the USA but who ultimetley owns toyota honda and nissan and where is the moeny trueley going? Over seas, They dont design accords and civics or any other import in the USA, they are an idea thst is planed and designed over seas and sent here for production. I say the big 3 because most of the profits stay in US circulation. When bought from forgein auto makers God knows where it goes, Sure some of it goes to Import automakers plants here in the US but some of it might go back to japan thus our country losing money and stimulating japan's economey.

[Atilla the Fun]

Back to the topic. I was short on time when I started this thread. Anyway, it does mean a lot of good parts, and the Vortec heads I took were on a "ruined" engine. I may need guide liners, but maybe the valveseals were good enough to save me. I always plan on aftermarket valves with any SBC heads. I also saw a "ruined" Dodge Magnum 5.9L, a perfectly good Ford V10 but it was in a van, or I woulda taken it. One good thing from all this, I took the front spindles and brakes from a '96 Mustang GT with a "ruined" 4.6L, and these parts are going on my '89 Mustang. And even on "ruined" engines, you can still get good water pumps, alternators, even 6-speed transmissions. It's well worth a day of freezing.

[CincinnatiFiero]

How ruined is ruined? Would an overbore and a full rebuild save them, or are they totally raped? Seems like you may be able to get the yard to sell you an LSx or that V10 for cheap since it is "ruined" or are they not allowed to sell the motors?

[Atilla the Fun]

IDK what would happen at any given yard. These engines were each sprayed with some pink paint. In my case, I used a handful of dirt from the ground to rub the paint off the head with. Most of the paint was on parts I didn't want. Once I got the heads off, I looked at the bores. A simple hone and re-ring woulda sufficed. All they do is run them until the engine locks up. A few had glass powder in the TB, but I didn't see much of that. The 350 I was wrenching on wasn't that way. Still, plan on having to completely disassemble whatever you get, and do some ultra-thorough cleaning. There was glass powder all around the rearmost head bolts under the valve covers, but the tips of the valves looked fine. I didn't even look at the rocker arms, I just discarded them. The pushrods stuck in the lifters, and I'd suspect the lifter bores would have to either be machined to the Ford size, or be machined and bushed. I'm sure the crank was a goner, and the bearings, but the rods should be fine. The cam would be dead, but who wants that cam anyway?
Still, don't be afraid to go look, these are still some of the best finds ever to make it into the yards.

[Fastback86]

http://www.toyotageorgetown.com That's toyotas
http://www.ohio.honda.com 12500 jobs there
Nissan has plants in Canton, Miss. and in Smyrna, Tenn.

Pontiackid your a dumbass. Why the big three?

I agree they should have left the engines available for salvage, but many of the "foreign cars" are keeping Americans working these days.

I say the big 3 because of 2 reasons. The cars are made designed and produced here in the USA. There might be toyota honda and nissan plants here in the USA but who ultimetley owns toyota honda and nissan and where is the moeny trueley going? Over seas, They dont design accords and civics or any other import in the USA, they are an idea thst is planed and designed over seas and sent here for production. I say the big 3 because most of the profits stay in US circulation. When bought from forgein auto makers God knows where it goes, Sure some of it goes to Import automakers plants here in the US but some of it might go back to japan thus our country losing money and stimulating japan's economey.

You don't know a damn thing, do you? Many imports ARE designed and built in the USA. Toyota, Mazda, Honda, Nissan and more ALL have design and engineering studios in the U.S. and combined they have dozens of factories here. The U.S.-spec Honda Accord is only built in Ohio. Ford, GM and Chrysler, meanwhile, have all outsourced a significant amount of their production to Canada and Mexico. Don't forget, either, that all three are global companies. GM will spend your money in China, Europe, South America, Australia or the Middle East just as fast as they'll spend it here. Same story with Ford, and don't forget, the Italians run Chrysler now. So what's better? Putting dinner on the table of a hard-working American who builds Toyotas in Texas or a hard-working Mexican who builds Fusions in Mexico?

[Fastback86]

Either way, I think both sides could have gotten what they want out of it by not mandating the destruction of the engine. A solution could be found to satisfy the powers that be that the vehicle will be disassembled for parts (and not returned to the road) without needlessly ruining the most valuable part.

How? There were two points to C4C: Stimulate the economy and take older, heavier polluting vehicles off the road. Without destroying the old, less-efficient, dirtier engine, you really haven't accomplished 50% of your objective. The engines had to die. Lay the blame at the feet of the people who took advantage of the program, it was hardly mandatory. You can always count on people to act in their own best interest.

[Atilla the Fun]

You don't get it. These engines are not the problem. The problem is that they're installed in heavy vehicles. These engines are much cleaner than the engines from older Camaros and Mustangs, Supras and 300ZXs, and if not ruined, could be installed in these beloved classics to clean them up. Far better to power a 3100 pound sports coupe than a 5100 pound SUV. The weight is the reason for the poor mpg. Even a ULEV engine will pollute less in a lighter car than in a heavier SUV. Because emissions is an effect of burning fuel. The less fuel you burn per mile, the less grams per mile emitted. Basic physics. Junior High school stuff.
Anyway, for American V8s, the crank damage is not a problem, it's an opportunity. An opportunity to add stroke. Nearly all other engines will need the journals turned undersize. Similar deal with the cams, you'll need to source replacements. Engines with cams riding in the aluminum of the head will need replacement heads, or welding and machining. All engines will require replacement oil pumps.

[Fastback86]

You don't get it. These engines are not the problem. The problem is that they're installed in heavy vehicles. These engines are much cleaner than the engines from older Camaros and Mustangs, Supras and 300ZXs, and if not ruined, could be installed in these beloved classics to clean them up. Far better to power a 3100 pound sports coupe than a 5100 pound SUV. The weight is the reason for the poor mpg. Even a ULEV engine will pollute less in a lighter car than in a heavier SUV. Because emissions is an effect of burning fuel. The less fuel you burn per mile, the less grams per mile emitted. Basic physics. Junior High school stuff.
Anyway, for American V8s, the crank damage is not a problem, it's an opportunity. An opportunity to add stroke. Nearly all other engines will need the journals turned undersize. Similar deal with the cams, you'll need to source replacements. Engines with cams riding in the aluminum of the head will need replacement heads, or welding and machining. All engines will require replacement oil pumps.

Yes, lighter vehicles will consume less and pollute less, but that's hardly relevant in this case. Most of the vehicles trashed in C4C were more than 10 years old. I don't care what shape a 10-year-old engine is in, it won't burn as efficiently or as cleanly as one in a brand new vehicle, which is exactly what was being offered. Putting a 10-year-old engine in a marginally lighter vehicle is better, but it's nothing compared to using an all-new engine. Further, you're assuming that these old engines are going to be put in either older vehicles or lighter vehicles, neither of which you can prove and isn't likely to be the case. Putting another 15-year-old V-6 in your '94 Impala to keep it on the road is barely an improvement. If it runs better than the engine it replaced, it's a marginal improvement, but its unlikely that junkyard engine will run as cleanly as even a brand new '94 Impala and nowhere near as clean as a brand new engine. The idea is to get old vehicles off the road, not keep other old vehicles on. The engines ARE the problem.

[The Dark Side of Will]

The idea is to get old vehicles off the road, not keep other old vehicles on. The engines ARE the problem.

So once the vehicle's in a salvage yard, why does the engine have to be destroyed? The vehicle is already off the road. The glut of engines in good condition would drive prices down and make it easier for someone who can't afford a new car to keep his current car on the road.

It's all political. It's all about the appearance of taking action.

[The Dark Side of Will]

It's kinda like emissions laws regarding engine swaps. What is the effect, really? What percentage of vehicle owners ever do serious modifications to their cars? 0.1%? Why the draconian rules on engine swaps?

[AkursedX]

Actually, besides the engines having to be destroyed, the whole vehicle HAS to be destroyed within a certain period of time.

I know a family back home who own a couple of salvage yards and they have TONS of C4K cars and they have been talking about how it's causing so many problems because they can't get extensions from the gov't and are working around the clock to get these cars crushed and can't spend the proper time pulling off the salvageable pieces.

[Fastback86]

The idea is to get old vehicles off the road, not keep other old vehicles on. The engines ARE the problem.

So once the vehicle's in a salvage yard, why does the engine have to be destroyed? The vehicle is already off the road. The glut of engines in good condition would drive prices down and make it easier for someone who can't afford a new car to keep his current car on the road.

It's all political. It's all about the appearance of taking action.

What? They're not going to salvage yards and destroying engines. The engines must be disabled before they ever leave the dealer's lot. Only C4C vehicles will have their engines destroyed. Every other vehicle that goes to the junkyard will still be usable. Yes, for a comparatively short period of time, there will be a glut of vehicles with disabled engines in the junkyards (which, according to Atilla, can still be saved), but they'll be gone soon enough thanks to normal turnover. C4C is over, it's not like there's never going to be another decent in a junkyard again, ever.

[The Dark Side of Will]

The idea is to get old vehicles off the road, not keep other old vehicles on. The engines ARE the problem.

So once the vehicle's in a salvage yard, why does the engine have to be destroyed? The vehicle is already off the road. The glut of engines in good condition would drive prices down and make it easier for someone who can't afford a new car to keep his current car on the road.

It's all political. It's all about the appearance of taking action.

What? They're not going to salvage yards and destroying engines. The engines must be disabled before they ever leave the dealer's lot. Only C4C vehicles will have their engines destroyed. Every other vehicle that goes to the junkyard will still be usable. Yes, for a comparatively short period of time, there will be a glut of vehicles with disabled engines in the junkyards (which, according to Atilla, can still be saved), but they'll be gone soon enough thanks to normal turnover. C4C is over, it's not like there's never going to be another decent in a junkyard again, ever.

Once the vehicle's turned in to C4C, it's off the road. End of story. Destroying the engines is just a spiteful waste, no matter where it happens. The government would rather destroy something that actually audit their own processes. It's disgusting.