Real Fiero Tech

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8As1zshWxn0

Keep in mind this is a 4000+ Lb car... Kind of makes me want to get an 02 Trans Am or something for cheap and build up an LS3 or something...

Go ride in something like that. Then you'll really want to do it. And you'll understand why I'm doing it to a Fiero.

I thought you didn't want to try and keep up with the jones es?

That's why I'm starting with a $1,200 Fiero and a $400 F40, plus about $3,500 worth of engine parts, not a $40,000 Supra or a $90,000 Viper.

Difference is, a supra and viper are supposed to be fast and are built appropriately. 700hp in a fiero would either break or kill you.

We'll see. Besides, Supras weren't built to be fast, they only came with up to 276 hp, only twice the HP of a Fiero 2.8L. When Dodge started developing the second generation of Viper, they knew all about Hennessee pushing them to 1000 hp. Big big difference.

Plus the Supra and Viper do handle and are fast and have a high top speed. Antilla's Fiero is just a pipe dream, it will never compare to a Supra or Viper.

Who's Antilla? typo for me? can't be, because I'm making fast progress. Lots faster than the '88 Camaro I got into the low 10s with a 355 SBC. That took me about 6 years. Anyway, aren't we getting off topic, just for the fun of gangin' up on Atilla, facts be damned?

Hennessey's still in business? Why do people keep going to him after he's defrauded half the Viper owners on the internet?

I wouldn't let him work on my Red Ryder wagon.

Pics of wagon?

Atilla the Fun wrote:We'll see. Besides, Supras weren't built to be fast, they only came with up to 276 hp, only twice the HP of a Fiero 2.8L. When Dodge started developing the second generation of Viper, they knew all about Hennessee pushing them to 1000 hp. Big big difference.

In Japan it was a gentlemans agreement not to rate any car higher then 276 hp. Fact is they all made more then that as the Mk4 supra in the states was rated at 320 hp. Not only that, but the supra motor is bullit proof from the factory. You can't compare a 2jz to a chevy 2.8. The 2.8 is a garbage motor. a 2jz with simple bolt ons and more boost will do 400 WHP no problem. No 2.8 will ever get close to that stock and be reliable at the same time. 400 whp on a 2j is no sweat. Not to mention the drivetrain can actually handle that type of power over and over again. Fieros with that power blow trannies, crack cradles, and pull the strut towers away from the trunk. Stock 2jz drivetrains have taken up to 1000 whp. Trannies, input shafts, rear diff's were built to hold a significant amount of power more then the factory rating and do it time and time again. Supras were built as race cars to compete against the skylines, and then detuned for the street. Fieros were built from leftover Chevette parts.

Shaun41178(2) wrote:Stock 2jz drivetrains have taken up to 1000 whp. Trannies, input shafts, rear diff's were built to hold a significant amount of power more then the factory rating and do it time and time again. Supras were built as race cars to compete against the skylines, and then detuned for the street.

MkIV Supra and R34 Skyline use the same Getrag 6 speed transmission.

The Dark Side of Will wrote:
MkIV Supra and R34 Skyline use the same Getrag 6 speed transmission.

[Old Europe] Will the 6-speed getrag from a Supra bolt up to a 2.8?? [/Old Europe]

Yes, but it requires an adapter plate and the 4 speed shifter from an 86 4 cyl with air conditioning. Also you have to change the EMC so that it can control the transmission properly. Go to v8archie.com, he can do anything.

The Dark Side of Will wrote:Hennessey's still in business? Why do people keep going to him after he's defrauded half the Viper owners on the internet?

I wouldn't let him work on my Red Ryder wagon.

I was wondering the same, but forgot to mention it... I read through a thread where Hennessey himself supposedly belittled and mocked people that questioned his business practices, and a pile of horror stories from owners, about parts being stripped and sold then the car being rolled into a corner and left to sit for many many months, people receiving stock Chrysler cams in a different box, etc. Crazy shit. I guess county records also showed some pretty questionable things about his business as well. But he's still there.

Typical Shaun, not getting it. Learn how to follow the point being made, stop getting lost in the way I type. I'm not dumb enough to compare any 2.8 to any Supra. I know full well what the Supra engines can be made to do, I've lost enough races to enough Supras. Usually in one of my "built" SBC Camaros, none of which I still own. But from behind, you can get a pretty goiod view of how much the Supra chassis is twisting when it unwraps then wraps up with each upshift, especially when the Supra you're losing to is on drag radials, with well-adjusted coilovers, a serious clutch, and 14 pounds of boost.
Lose to a Viper, you'll see the chassis does not twist or wrap. At all.
I'm not doubting the Fiero has lots of flex, I've watched my '84 when jacking it to pull the cradle. But I know what to do about it. And it's more than most Supra owners do. It's called adding a cage. Most don't do it, to make opponents think the car is slower than it is. But with a Fiero, most of my opponents will think it's there for Autocrossing.
I got off topic.
The point I made several posts ago was about what the chassis could take. The point you're now having to face it that, as good as the Supra engine is, a comparably built LSX is even better. Dollar for dollar, no Toyota engine can compete. The LSX block will hold 2500 HP, according to GM, and according to famous professional drag racer Warren Johnson, who helped design it. The MAST MOTORSPORTS heads far outflow, and have thicker decks than, the best Supra head on earth. And so on. Plus the LSX will go to 8.4L, something else no Toyota engine can do.
A Supra is a Japanese Camaro or a Japanese Mustang, not a Japanese Viper.
anyway, enough Supras, I'm not chasing the really fast Supras anyway. I will be passing the unmodified ones, however.

Atilla the Fun wrote:I'm not doubting the Fiero has lots of flex, I've watched my '84 when jacking it to pull the cradle. But I know what to do about it. And it's more than most Supra owners do. It's called adding a cage. Most don't do it, to make opponents think the car is slower than it is. But with a Fiero, most of my opponents will think it's there for Autocrossing.

Where do you think the Fiero flexes? I've jacked them up from lots of different angles and never had problems opening and closing doors, etc. On my Pontiac 6000, the doors don't quite work right when I jack it up from the front cradle crossmember. Old Targa Porsches do the same thing. I haven't had those problems with a Fiero.

Also, a Fiero chassis takes power differently than a longitudinal chassis. On something like a Supra, with engine/trans mounted to the body and diff mounted to the body separately, the body takes the torsional difference between the two, which can be several thousand foot lbs. In a C5/6 Corvette the torque tube reacts that force rather than the body. In a Fiero, there is no torsional loading, only squat from axle torque.

I may be doing it wrong, but I put my jack stands under the rear "frame rails" just an inch in front of the rear bumper. I then jack under the rears of the doors, one side at a time. I noticed this, then measured it. I have to raise the jack at least 1/4" before the"rail" comes off the stand. If the car was rigid, this would not be the case. In other words, when the Fiero is being supported by the front tires and the rear bumber, the area under the driver's butt is sagging. Not okay. Thus, the car needs a main hoop added, then run some bars from the top of that back to something closer to the rear bumper. And another set of bars need to go forward, diagonally, to something solid and near the upper ends of the front springs.
Whatever actually ends up getting installed, I can't yet predict. That's the sort of work I pay for, not the sort I do myself. That's why they invented trailers, so you can take your chassis to the chassis shop.

Atilla the Fun wrote: The point you're now having to face it that, as good as the Supra engine is, a comparably built LSX is even better. Dollar for dollar, no Toyota engine can compete.

A stock 2JZ has been known to make 1000hp on a completely stock long block. I don't think you can claim the same with a stock LS1.

Up until very recently a supra had the record for the fastest texas mile ever. A Ford GT just beat the record. Neither are LSX powered. The LS isn't the end all motor everyone thinks it is.

Supra
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xr58Fq9fwo

GT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db6zuZjWCmE

Atilla the Fun wrote:I may be doing it wrong, but I put my jack stands under the rear "frame rails" just an inch in front of the rear bumper. I then jack under the rears of the doors, one side at a time. I noticed this, then measured it. I have to raise the jack at least 1/4" before the"rail" comes off the stand. If the car was rigid, this would not be the case.

The compliance of the front suspension is screwing up your measurement.

The technique you described looks at "beam stiffness". While useful, it's not nearly as important as torsional stiffness.

To measure torsional stiffness, you need to support the tub at 3 corners and hang weights from the 4th corner. Use a dial indicator and some geometry to come up with a ftlbs/degree number. I haven't tested it myself, but I've read that the Fiero is ~3500 ftlbs/degree. This is quite good compared to its peers and to cars like the Mjata.