Audi fail

[Atilla the Fun]

The Audi RS-fest continues with the RS3, spied on its way to the 'Ring for the obligatory entrance exam to become any kind of sports car. The news on the street is that the RS3 will get a reworked version of the five-cylinder lump from the TT RS with output claimed to be "over 330 bhp." It won't though, get the TT RS's six-speed manual, going for an S-tronic instead.

Thank them that this disaster isn't coming to the USA, even though it does have a nice Orange color.

No stick and third pedal, no admission to the sports car category. Good night.

[Shaun41178(2)]

Anyone catch Tombstone on tv today? Pretty good movie.

[CincinnatiFiero]

DSG shifts faster than any of us can think about shifting. Wanna go fast or enjoy the feel of thinking you're going fast because you're rowing the gears.

[Atilla the Fun]

If I want a truly fast shift, I'll put a shift kit in a 700R-4. 13 milliseconds FTMFW!!!!!!!!!!!!
But adding all the crap to make those new trannies shift in 60-150 milliseconds, depending on brand and so on, adds unnecessary weight which hurts acceleration, handling, cornering, braking and MPG. Any mechanic can fix a real manual. Think of what happens when these new things fail the day after the warranty expires. It'll be cheaper to bulldozer the car into a volcano or a lake, and buy a new one. No, the traditional 3-pedal is still the best. It eats 9% less engine output than an automatic. It keeps you in absolute control of what gear you want. It makes you an integral part of the driving. And it looks more impressive to the ladies worth having.

[CincinnatiFiero]

On a dual clutch or a sequential you are picking the gear, you're just shifting lightning fast. Dual clutch is hardly a 700R4 running 5,000,000psi line pressures. Two totally different worlds.

The first DSG transaxle that went into production for the Volkswagen Group mainstream marques had six forward speeds (and one reverse),[6][7] and used wet/submerged multi-plate clutch packs[2][4] (Volkswagen Group internal code: DQ250, parts code prefix: 02E).[7][8] It has been paired to engines with up to 350 N·m (260 lb·ft) of torque,[6][7] and the two-wheel drive version weighs 93 kg (210 lb). It is manufactured at Volkswagen Groups Kassel plant,[2] with a daily production output of 1,500 units

At the start of 2008, another world first,[6] an additional 70 kg (150 lb) seven-speed DSG transaxle became availible

This dual circuit lubrication is aimed at increasing overall reliability, due to eliminating cross-contamination of debris and wear particles.[12] It has a torque handling limit of up to 600 N·m (440 lb·ft),[7] and engine power outputs of up to 330 kW (450 PS; 440 bhp).[7] It has a total mass, including all lubricants and the dual-mass flywheel of 141.5 kg (312 lb)

^^ For a quatro AWD car, what does a 700R4 plus transfer case weigh?

Wikipedia's positives, you've already stated the negatives, doesn't get AS good of fuel economy as a true manual, expensive currently, and harder to work on.

# Better fuel economy[2][6] (up to 15% improvement) than conventional planetary geared automatic transmission (due to lower parasitic losses from oil churning)[5] and for some models with manual transmissions;[2]
# No loss of torque transmission from the engine to the driving wheels during gear shifts;[2][4][5]
# Extremely fast up-shift time of 8 milliseconds when shifting to a gear the alternate gear shaft has preselected;[3][4]
# Very smooth gear-shift operations;[4][5]
# Consistent shift time of 600 milliseconds, regardless of throttle or operational mode

[Emc209i]

700R-4

Drinking again? I've got a bad one you can have. You'll have to take the POS '92 Oldsmobile Cruiser it's attached to.

Comparing a 700R-4 to an S-tronic; wow.

[jelly2m81]

He's just mad the RS3 will outperform his Fiero.

If you want to talk fail boat, lets discuss putting a cavi 2.0L in a Fiero!

[Emc209i]

Using a Cavalier 2.0 would at best be a suitable match for the lowly duke. Correct as usual.

[Atilla the Fun]

half of you are missing the point, the other half, you can't even stick to the subject. I explained why the 2.0 went in, I was desperate for a winter driver before finding another solution. The 2.0 is now gone, it's back to the LS V8. Which is going back in later this month.

A few other facts. The 700R, running 300 psi, has been timed to upshift in 13 ms, so that's why I referenced a 700R, it's certainly just as true of a TH400 or whatever else. It's not clear if that kit replaced the 1-2 accumulator servo spring with solid spacers, or not. Some kits do, some don't, they didn't specify which kit. Damn shame, too. If not, then it could be around 5 ms with spacers.

I don't want a fast shift. Ultra-fast shifts dont equal ultra-fast acceleration in a linear 1:1 relationship. Automatics are better for driving up a 6% grade coated in ice. I've tried both stick and auto in that situation, climbing Eisenhower from Denver, fully loaded. The auto is even more preferable if you have to stop near the top because a Semi jackknifed.

I'm glad they're trying new things, and I'm glad technology is advancing, but it's taking the control away from the driver. The computer can't tell if there's a drunk driver bouncing across a field to your right at 90 mph. In the time it takes to notice I went WOT, then check all the inputs to decide which gear would give me the lowest emissions with my request for acceleration, I could already have my stick shifted to the lowest possible gear for my road speed and powerband. Then it has to actually give you that gear.
No, you guys can keep the DBW and computer gear selection.

Did you notice the Top Gear bit about the 640-horse Golf? When Jeremy said it doesn't just explode forward? That's because the DBW wasn't opening the throttle as abruptly as Jeremy's foot would have opened a true mechanical throttle. And it's not just for traction control. It's also for emissions.
Emissions is fine. But when I ask for WOT RIGHT NOW! it could be a life or death situation. That extra pause of DBW could, in certain circumstances, cost a life. And the life must outweigh the emissions.
IRS, good bushings, good shocks, a good LSD, and sticky tires are enough traction control. Any more is just big brother intruding because big brother is desperate to control everything. Political types are like that, they're addicted to power, just the wrong kind. They can't even live their lives right, but they want to dictate how we live ours. No thanks. Car guys know better when to have WOT, when to have which gear, and so on.
So, 3 pedals, or it cannot qualify as a true sports car.

[Atilla the Fun]

And what about the other factors?
Like the initial cost? It's more than double the cost of a new TR6060.
What about the clutch issue? Did you see the Stig smoke the F430's clutch in the "secret launch mode"? Are we supposed to just call up Centerforce and ask for an upgrade? the electronics would freak out. Could it even manage to shift with a stiffer pressure plate?
The F430 doesn't even make any torque or have any weight, we sure couldn't trust that trans in a heavy new LSA-powered CTS-V.
No, it's too-new technology, in a world too obsessed with emissions-over-all-else.

[CincinnatiFiero]

A Ferrari F1 transmission is designed to that engine specifically, why does it matter that it can't handle LSx torque? If all you can afford is a 5 year old CTS-V, you probably can't afford a ferrari transmission, which is a transaxle and a silly discussion to start with.

You don't put LSx into Ferraris, or Audis, and in the case of Ferrari's I'd make an argument that you shouldn't mod them at all.

Ferrari owners are not going to put 4-speed 700R4s in their cars, and they probably don't drive them during snow storms. This debate doesn't really go anywhere.

[Atilla the Fun]

I'm not here to be doubted. I'm here to share ideas, to enjoy other peoples builds and mistakes, and to help, because helping feels good. When I want an argument, I'll come right out and ask for one. If I make an error, I do quickly admit it. Otherwise, I AM CORRECT!!!!!!!!!!
You guys are always causing me stress, for no good reason. You all need to adopt a student mentality when reading anything I type. Period. I don't have to be here. Keep f'ing with me for no good reason, and I'll stop being here.
I'm not God, especially when it comes to '88 Fieros. I'm close enough to one when it comes to SBCs, Camaros, et cetera. Not once have I wronged any of you without you wronging me first. You owe me infinitely more respect. You show it, you'll get it.

[AkursedX]

I drive both a heavily modded Fiero and a modded GTI (same basic platform as the RS3) with a Direct Shift Gearbox. I would take the Audi over any Fiero that has ever been built.

[CincinnatiFiero]

Dave, forums exist to foster discussion and debate. You stated your side, now we have stated ours, and we are all discussing now. If you don't want someone elses opinion, don't share yours.

Your opinion, 700R4, be all end all.

My opinion, 700R4 rocks in the correct applications, but I think 700R4s are not in the same class as DSG and don't even compare enough to make for a discussion. They both transmit power, that is where the similarities end. 700R4 has withstood the test of time, DSG is newer technology, I support change and innovation, not discounting the 700R4, but would I say the DSG is worthless shit, absolutely not. I drove about a half of a dozen Jetta diesels with it, it was great, so far my personal experiences with DSG have been great.

In the garage right now with Auto transes,

A4 2.0T ('06)
F250 351W ('96)
Fiero 3800SC ('99)
Dakota 3.9 ('92)
Mercedes 300D ('87)
Mercedes E320 ('94)

I personally like the A4 trans the most. My opinion.

[The Dark Side of Will]

You guys are always causing me stress, for no good reason.

If you're getting stressed over an internet forum, it's not because of us.

[Shaun41178(2)]

audi should just get rid of this drivetrain setup, and use nothing but sbc's and 700r4's from now on. Should help gm get out of this hole.

[pontiackid86]

audi should just get rid of this drivetrain setup, and use nothing but sbc's and 700r4's from now on. Should help gm get out of this hole.

If they do that will you go make fun of the creators of audi and leave V8Archie alone Shawn might have found a new life.

[Series8217]

audi should just get rid of this drivetrain setup, and use nothing but sbc's and 700r4's from now on. Should help gm get out of this hole.

The Autilla A4?

[Atilla the Fun]

audi should just get rid of this drivetrain setup, and use nothing but sbc's and 700r4's from now on. Should help gm get out of this hole.

I doubt it. With the 3.059:1 first and 1.625"1 second, I don't believe the Audi's torque curve is enough like Mt. Everest for this to be a good match. Plus the 700R-4 was evolved into the 4L60e, so for all intents and purposes, the 700R-4 is discontinued. Sad. At least it wasn't computer controlled. Thus you had the option of a full-manual valve body, for those with no left leg but a desire for a stick with OD.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I'd rather have a computer controlled auto than a hydraulically controlled auto. With an aftermarket controller, you can tune the electronic one to do anything you want.