S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

[The Dark Side of Will]

One project at a time.

It's not new that we disagree on this, but I'm beginning to wonder how you arrived at your position on this?

By repeatedly not getting things done trying to work on 4 at once.

I frequently need to relearn that lesson.

[Atilla the Fun]

I turned 30 in Iraq and I'm 31 now.
I own two properties in northern VA (looking for #'s 3 and following), I'm finishing up a MS in Systems Engineering, I was just selected for LCDR in the Navy Reserve, I work full time in aerospace and trade the stock market.
Sometimes life gets in the way of cars.
No wife or kids, yet. Did have a scare recently, though.

But once you've accomplished all that, you'll be able to afford all the projects you can dream up.

[Atilla the Fun]

By repeatedly not getting things done trying to work on 4 at once.

OMG, I have a skill you dont! Maybe? Or do you think I'm also not getting things done?

[Emc209i]

not getting things done..

[The Dark Side of Will]

By repeatedly not getting things done trying to work on 4 at once.

OMG, I have a skill you dont! Maybe? Or do you think I'm also not getting things done?

How do you get started on a project?
Do you say "That sounds cool and I haven't had one of those before. I think I'll get one. And I have some widgets on the shelf that would be sweet with it, too!"

Or do you say "I want to build a gizmo with characteristics A, B and C. I'll check eBay and car-parts.com until I can find exactly what I want for a price I can afford."

The first is hot-rodding, the second is engineering. I've spent way too much time hot-rodding and not enough time engineering the things I've been working on.

Engineering is making what you want from things you can get.
Hot-Rodding is taking things you have making something in some way interesting without a priori regard for whether it's what you need or not.

More later... gotta work.

[Atilla the Fun]

That's the best post I've ever seen, thank you!
By that standard, the Fiero started as hot rodding, but has now become about 60% engineering. Like, for ( a poor ) example, I want a mid-engine chassis that accepts a V8, isn't an MR2, and has a nose with a shorter front overhang, but the nose can't be high like my stocker, it's gotta be low, like an FD RX-7. So I looked at the noses of hundreds of cars, settled on one, then shopped online until I found the bumper, cover, fenders, lights, hood, and airdam. It all comes in under $1500 plus shipping, unless I score at the salvage yards.
That, by your definition, is engineering.
I've never been good at giving examples.
Most of my best engineering hasn't been done to my cars.
I do love hot rodding, but I'm competent at engineering, and would happily do it for a living, if I could. I haven't found an opportunity. And I'm content to do cabinetry. That's good work. Plenty of engineering in custom cabinetry.
My Mustang started as an engineering project. I wanted a chassis that could break track records, yet be home-built by a competent shade-tree mechanic with a steady modest income. I wanted something with the feel of V8 torque, 1g cornering, 1.5g braking, non-race-car looks, that I could justify to a future wife, meaning getting rugrats in it. I really considered a 911 Turbo. I found one I could test-drive. And I did test-drive it.
I've gone astray on my 'stang many times, for several reasons. When I bought it, I was driving a '91 Camaro RS, that was such a sweet price, it was worth at least 3 times what I paid.
I did consider a Viper V-10 in it, because it could fit. I considered a BMW V-12, plus turbos.
I just realized I'm way off topic, sorry.

[The Dark Side of Will]

$2700, 600 miles, and $61.80 in tolls later...



The throttles are on their way and should arrive this week. A stock clutch and stock exhaust manifolds should be coming soon (all part of the same deal). I bought the engine "complete". The seller had Dinan headers, throttles, intake tubes flywheel and clutch (and maybe a few other bolt-ons) on it. He sold those items separately and is getting the stock parts back from the buyers to send to me. The throttles are all I'm *really* concerned about. I only want the stock clutch to measure it so I can implement a Tilton fitment. I'll start with a flex plate for that, anyway. The stock exhaust manifolds will be cool, but won't fit a V8 E34's pipes. I may try headers for an E34 540i, or I may adapt the E39 manifolds to the E34 pipes.

I do still need a wiring harness. The tall technical tent pole for any swap involving this engine will be the DME. I'm researching that.

Here it is compared to my dad's 5.3 that's still sitting around waiting to go into his Datsun (at least the engine and Datsun are in the same room now).



As you can see, when you take the width of EXHAUST MANIFOLDS into the equation, an LSx is every bit as wide as the so-called "bulky" DOHC engine. I do not expect that the exhaust manifolds will add anything to the overall width of the engine.

[Emc209i]

I know you have pictures from the side. The only awesome thing going for that engine is its exhaust note, I've always been impressed with it. Cool buy.

[Atilla the Fun]

Congrats!
That said, it's poor power per dollar, with worse potential per dollar. The 5.3 is very clean, but using the truck manifolds makes for a very unfair comparison. ANY of the car LSx exhaust manifolds will make for a narrower-overall package than that "furrin' mo-tur".
The 5.3 cam is a 191 / 190 duration at 0.050", 114 lobe sep. 0.457 / 0.466" lift. I have a good used '01 LS1 / LQ9 cam if you're / he's interested. 196 / 207 duration, 116 lobe sep. 0.467 / 0.479" lift. Same one GM is using in the 332 HP, 352 TQ crate 5.3 It''d raise his HP peak to 5600 rpm. No re-tune required.

[The Dark Side of Will]

To put a 400 HP V8 into an E34 with NO LOPE, it's not such a bad bang for the buck.
My dad's looking at cams. He'll probably go with the cam you mentioned at a minimum. We've talked about a HOT cam but I've read that there are others on the market that give better power with equivalent driveability.

[Atilla the Fun]

NO-lope 400 HP LS1's been done a million times. See, Texas Speed and others have dynoed pure-stock LS1s to be at 400 HP. At 5600 rpm. And I can link you to that clip of the no-lope VooDoo LM7. That cam is worth 40 HP in the LS1, peaking at just 5800 rpm, pulling to 6200.
What a truck 5.3 really wants is something more like Howards' 190315: 210 / 214 - 114, 0.595 / 0.598. And just $328. Most LSx cams are around $380. Plus that'll make mid-range torque like a stock LQ4.
But if you're wanting to twist it up, with ARP rod bolts, then the smallest Trick Flow cam is an excellent start. Slightly better idle than the CheaTR, too.

[The Dark Side of Will]

NO-lope 400 HP LS1's been done a million times.

Yep, GM even built a few, but they called them LS6 instead.

See, Texas Speed and others have dynoed pure-stock LS1s to be at 400 HP.

Not sure what you mean by this. Are they factory freaks, underrated, or did their dynos need calibration?

What a truck 5.3 really wants is something more like Howards' 190315: 210 / 214 - 114, 0.595 / 0.598. And just $328. Most LSx cams are around $380. Plus that'll make mid-range torque like a stock LQ4.
But if you're wanting to twist it up, with ARP rod bolts, then the smallest Trick Flow cam is an excellent start. Slightly better idle than the CheaTR, too.

My dad's going to swap to the Corvette oil pan (already in possession), so he may be convinced to replace the rod bolts during that operation. I'll gladly listen to your cam recommendations, but I'll start another thread when we're closer to being ready.

I still maintain it's not such bad bang for the buck. After all, it should *bolt right in* to an E34. We'll see how the electronic side of the house works out. That's the big deal with this swap.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Right now my dad's planning to use a Saginaw 4 speed w/ Borg Warner OD unit. He found one with a 2.85 first gear and already has the OD on the shelf. He has the shift linkage--including original C2 Corvette shifter--for this figured out as that's what his previous L99 Datsun ran before the octagenarian pulled a Cadillac out in front of him.

Not sure if the shifter for the NV3500 would come up in the right place, although a quick look on ebay showed a couple of different shifter locations: one forward in the middle of the transmission for Silverados and one rearward for 4.3 S10's.
I'll check into it, but he's unlikely to want to buy another transmission when he already has a setup that works. In what years and applications was the transmission used?

[Atilla the Fun]

NO-lope 400 HP LS1's been done a million times.

Yep, GM even built a few, but they called them LS6 instead.

See, Texas Speed and others have dynoed pure-stock LS1s to be at 400 HP.

Not sure what you mean by this. Are they factory freaks, underrated, or did their dynos need calibration?

What a truck 5.3 really wants is something more like Howards' 190315: 210 / 214 - 114, 0.595 / 0.598. And just $328. Most LSx cams are around $380. Plus that'll make mid-range torque like a stock LQ4.
But if you're wanting to twist it up, with ARP rod bolts, then the smallest Trick Flow cam is an excellent start. Slightly better idle than the CheaTR, too.

My dad's going to swap to the Corvette oil pan (already in possession), so he may be convinced to replace the rod bolts during that operation. I'll gladly listen to your cam recommendations, but I'll start another thread when we're closer to being ready.

I still maintain it's not such bad bang for the buck. After all, it should *bolt right in* to an E34. We'll see how the electronic side of the house works out. That's the big deal with this swap.

No, NOT the LS6. Even the regular LS1, with #241 heads, NOT the LS6 #243 heads. With the LQ9 cam, NOT the LS6 cam. It's not factory freaks, it's not bad dyno cals. A little research shows it's like 370 with stock manifolds, but able to crack 400 with any 1.75" long-tube headers. And with stock cams having -25 degrees or more of non-overlap, there's no way they'll lope.
Further, study the dyno sub-forum on ls1tech.com. Guys are hitting 380 rwhp with just bolt-ons. Cam and Head guys are getting over 450 RWHP. Add the overpriced FAST intake manifold, and 500 is possible. It's been done.
Think about this: These cars, supposedly making 325 crank HP in the F-twins, were putting down 320 RWHP right off the showroom floor. Does this mean the T56 and 10-bolt axle, combined, have become 98% efficient? Oh hell no! It means GM was under-rating ALL the LS1s.
But I guess it's tough to grasp that, because no other has ever under-rated their engines so drastically.
A pure-stock LS1 with headers is still stock, in my book. It's stock until you change the cam or heads or go beyond the LS6 intake, which was stock on the '01-'02 LS1 F-twins. It's worth about 10 RWHP, and was used to hit 400 on the dyno, in every case I can find.
Now that I've answered what upset me, lets move on. The LS6 heads are better flowing, no doubt. But they also have more efficient combustion chambers. They're casting number 243, but the newer 799s are identical. These are factory fitment on some 5.3s, albeit with the flat top pistons from the 4.8L. It's worth doing, but even at sea level, the LS6 heads, also used on the LS2, still need shaved 0.030" for such small displacement, even with flat-tops. LS2s did not get the trick valves from the S6.
You can safely use head gaskets as thin as 0.045". No thinner, because at TDC the cast aluminum pistons come 0.010" out of the block.
Only the LS6, LQ9 / LS2 and LS3 got hypers. All others were cast, except the LS7, LS9 and LSA which got true forgings.
If you keep the 706 heads you probably have, those should be milled 0.030", even with the LQ9 / LS1 cam. That's still only 10.0:1, while the Q9 was 10.08:1, with similar chambers.
The LS6 springs should be installed, at just $51 / set. Springs are wear items, and the yellow springs are good for 0.570" lift. Also do a new LS2 chain. I can post part numbers if you want them.
It'd still be cool to rear-turbo the Bavarian. Something between T60 and T70 should do. If it has an LSD. Or if you can get one.

[Aaron]

The LS1 was underrated to start with. The same identical configuration was offered with outputs of 305, 325, 335, and 350hp. And it's not uncommon for one to dyno 320-330 at the wheels.

[Atilla the Fun]

Not quite, but thanks for backing me up.
The 241 heads are slightly better than the other LS1 heads, and the 241s didn't appear until '01, but the 853s were used '99-'04, while the 339s and 806s were '97-'98.
The '97-'99 'vette cam was not used in anything else, the '00 'vette cam had a tighter lobe sep than the F-twins, '01 and '02 the 'vette and F-twins used the same cam, which cost a few HP compared to the '00 cam, and the '98-'99 F-twins used the same cam as the '00 F-twins. The '00 'vette cam was the best of the lot.
The 'vette manifolds are independently tested to be worth a few horses over the F-twins, also. But you hafta use what will fit. Truck manifolds can't fit an LSx fiero with a 1/4" adapter plate and the RWD block bolted to a Muncie using it's stock-replacement mounts, from The Fiero Store, shifted 3/4" left per Archy's instructions, for example. But the F-twin manifolds fit excellently.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Throttles did arrive the week after the engine, as promised... I've just been delinquent with the pics. The Dinan short stacks are *sweeeeet*.

Also have a lead on a guy on http://www.e30.de who can reflash the stock MSS52 DME to work without the rest of the E39. He also supposedly converts to Alpha-N fuel control... Not sure what to think about that. Don't know if it retains traction control, how it reads vehicle speed (no VSS on later E39's) and a host of other details. I *may* have to double up select sensors and retain the E34 DME to run the gauges.

I received a box of loose hardware with the engine. I need to look through that for the nuts and o-rings that bolt down and seal the TB's to the heads, then get them installed to keep crap out of the engine.

[Emc209i]

The velocity stacks look good. I was thinking about your engine the other day, a sideswiped E39 was in my local yard with a complete 4.4 version of the V8. The car was a skeleton in about 2 days. I thought it was interesting that the crank reluctor was external on the front of the engine. I am watching to see how the swap turns out.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Thought I'd move this thread here.

The external crank trigger isn't a surprise on an old engine like the M30 or M20, but I was surprised that the V8 still had it external. The Northstar has an internal crank sensor, and it was designed at the same time as the M60 of which the S62 is an evolution.

I picked up a wiring harness for $350 and an auto trans flexplate for $30 + shipping. Now I have about $3100 in it as it sits. With potential recipient cars in the $3-$4K range, $1K for the reflashed ECM, and $1K for the clutch I *might* be able to fit the whole swap inside $10K.

Don't worry, I'm not going to put it with an auto. I'm going to use the flexplate to build a button type flywheel for a Tilton clutch.

Should I get this for parts? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 0737201803
It used to be listed for $2500.

[CincinnatiFiero]

I don't see the point. Looks like a good way to get $1,200 further from getting it done and having a bunch of parts you already have.