S62 E30 AWD (Formerly: Fantastic V8 swap candidate)

[The Dark Side of Will]

The S62's been stuck in the shed while my dad rearranges his garage to complete the new addition. As soon as there's room and we get his 5.3 off my engine stand, I'll have the S62 in the garage to fit the E53 M62 oil pan...

In addition to the crossmember, pan, and E46 diff, I now also have a steering rack and an E53 diff.

One of the big driving factors behind packaging these front diffs is the height of the block skirt/oil pan rail. Because the I6 is tipped over 20ish degrees, the block skirt is higher on that side than the block skirt of the V8, which is installed vertical. This means not only that the upper mounting bolts on the diff have to be lower for the V8, but that the pinion centerline has to be further from the crank centerline on the V8's than on the I6's. Of course the tallest gears available in the V8 case are 3.64. I have 3.07's in the E46 case and really need 2.56. Since I can't get the 2.56's readily on this side of the pond, I'll have to settle for 3.07's... which means tearing apart the two diffs and swapping the gears. BMW lists the diffs as single units with "No further intervention", so I'm flying blind regarding service info.

I was hoping to be able to rework the E30 325iX front driveshaft, but it looks like I'll need to build a driveshaft with u-joints... probably starting from an E46 front driveshaft.

[Atilla the Fun]

What transmission? No overdrive in it? Because in the world I live in, a 3.64:1 is a decent ratio for performance, a 3.07:1 is a decent ratio for economy, and 2.56:1 is a decent ratio for scrap. I wouldn't want 2.56:1 even with the 338 HP 502 and a 6L80E. Not even if I added twin turbos to that.

[The Dark Side of Will]

BMW builds diesel cars for the Euro market with FD's 2.35, 2.56, 2.81 and 2.93.
AMC Eagles had 2.35's, but like you said... scrap.

A manual transmission is most efficient in terms of frictional loss in direct. That's 4th for a T5 or T56, of course. The ZF five speed commonly used in BMW's in the '90's has FIFTH gear direct. First is 4.20. Thus 3.07 becomes a performance gear and 3.64 becomes an 1/8 mile gear. BMW's modern six speed transmissions still use 5th gear direct.

In order to bolt together Bad Idea powertrain version 1.0, I need to use the ZF 5 speed. I missed my chance to grab the Euro market 2.93 vorderachsgetriebe from http://www.ebay.de and I'm seeing more and more that I should have snagged that part. It was an E92 front diff and driveshaft. I would have ended up swapping the gears into the E53 case *anyway*, I would have had the E92 front driveshaft to modify, and I could have bolted in a 2.93 rear from a 325e... Oops. I'll have to settle for the domestic 3.07 and build both front *AND* rear diffs. D-oh.

Version 2.0 will use a T56 or TR-6060 and 3.91 gears from an E53 X5 4.6is...

[Atilla the Fun]

3.07 x 4.2 x 336 x 45, / 26" = 7500 RPM. Those BMWs do rev, right? And 45 MPH is way too much for first gear.
The 3.64:1 would be 38, much better.
And since you seem to be playing with AWD, no worries about traction problems.
The results matter more than the numbers, and 38 vs 45 is the result. 3.64:1 is the number.
Of course, I'm assuming the part about 7500 redline. But it seems safe in light of the 4.0L in the M3.

[The Dark Side of Will]

My engine is the 5 litre from a '99ish to '04ish M5. 7000 RPM redline stock. It's cammed for torque and capable of more RPM... it just needs more cam to make that useful. Of course in addition to the 32V tax, I'd have to pay the BMW tax *AND* the Motorsport tax on valvesprings and cams...

Look at the other end of that scale. Stock The M5 had 4.23 first, 0.81 sixth and 3.15 final for an overall top gear of 2.55. I'm in touch online with a guy who swapped his 3.15 final for a 2.65 given an overall sixth of 2.14. He found the car much more enjoyable to drive and much more relaxed on the highway. The engine had enough torque easily to pull a 4000# car with that gear on the highway. With the ZF fifth gear direct, my final drive ratio is my overall top gear. When the engine could easily pull a 2.0 in the 2800# body, a 3.07 is way too much gear. That's a shorter top gear than the Northstar car has, and that's already too short in the same weight chassis with less torque.

4.20 * 3.07 ~ 12.9 (Bad Idea 1.0)
3.50 * 3.61 ~ 12.6 (The Mule with Getrag 282)
As it is, Bad Idea will end up with more first gear than The Mule and The Mule already has more than it needs.

[Atilla the Fun]

Looking at proven combos, and speaking of your proposed 2.15:1 final,
I had a '78 camaro with a 350, and a 3.08:1 axle, and 26" tires ( 235/60R15 ). I swapped on some L69 heads, a 700R-4, and a lockup kit from Painless.
This resulted in a 2.14:1 final ( 3.077 x 0.696 )
This would do 830 RPM at 30 MPH, barely, and returned 25.1 MPG at 65 MPH. Then I discovered that I only had my 6 degrees initial, plus 20 degrees vacuum. The centrifugal advance was seized. I rebuilt the dizzy, and the improvement in acceleration was beyond words. I did have detonation on hot afternoons on the interstate until I burned the last of the 85-octane I had been using. But I never got the chance to test my MPG after fixing the advance. Still, I know it would have done 27 MPG at 60 MPH.
That's with a 5.7L that's out of cam by 4500 RPM. Just the stock 3896929 cam with the original, stretched timing chain.
Combine less cubes with a higher RPM range, there's no way you'll pull this gearing without lugging. This is perfect for a street Camaro, not a euro-"sport".
I'd hate for you to make a well-intentioned mistake that would cost you hundreds to remedy.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I have the testimony of a guy who's using the very same engine I have who says that 2.15 is fine in a much heavier car than I'll have.

Also consider the 4th Gen F-bodies, and C5/6 Corvettes... 0.5:1 top gear with 3.42 axle means 1.71 final and they do fine. In heavier cars with similar torque. Since I'll be shifting this car myself, I don't have to worry about it trying to pull top gear from 800 RPM. How did you get an autotragic to do that anyway?

I'm not sure how relevant the peanut cam 350 in the much-heavier-than-an-E30 Camaro is to this combo. Think about it more like an LS1 in a Vega... What kind of gear could that combo pull?

[Series8217]

Ok I guess I'm a little late to this thread. I'm trying to figure out what you're doing. Let me get this straight: You're planning to put an S62 into an E34 with a ZF 5spd, the front half of an E92 3**ix AWD setup and something to match in the rear?

And the backup plan (if the AWD setup isn't feasible) is to adapt a T56 or TR-6060 to the S62 and keep it RWD?

[The Dark Side of Will]

Not quite...
S62 with E53 X5 oil pan and front diff into E30 325iX body with E34 ZF transmission and E30 T-case. The transmission from a E34 530i (V8) has the right bellhousing. The rear case half from the Euro-market E34 525iX should bolt on to the V8 transmission and let me mount the transfer case.

That's version 1.0. I can bolt together that combo fairly easily and quickly with minimal fabrication.
Version 2.0 would come at some point down the road when I felt like spending the time/money to fabricate a bellhousing to bolt the T56 to the S62, a T-case adapter to bolt a T-case to a T56 and a custom short output shaft to keep the whole assembly as short as possible.

Progress pictures:

E46 front diff with 3.07 gears:
Does not fit the E53 oil pan

[The Dark Side of Will]

E53 diff on the left. You can see the "pinion bulge" in the E46 case on the right. Since the E46 diesel cars in Europe had gears down to 2.56, the diff case has to accomodate much larger pinions than the E53 case, for which 3.64 was the tallest ratio. The E46 diff pictured has 3.07 gears. There may or may not be enough clearance inside the E53 case for the larger pinion.




You can see that the o-ring fitting boss on the back of the diff is a little taller on the E53 diff, meaning it can reach further into the pan to fully engage the o-ring bore.


Obviously the E53 diff fits the E53 pan...






Close mock-up with the pan, crossmember and rack.


Pan centered over the crossmember and rack




*VERY* close clearance between the dipstick tube boss and the steering rack


Proximity of the power steering tube to the diff bolt boss on the pan


Interference between the diff mounting ear, side of the diff case and the tube. The pan is offset away from the camera close to 1.5" in this picture.


The pan, of course, is in a very approximate location (It's as far forward as it can go in these photos). I don't know its exact longitudinal or vertical locations yet. I've canvassed a 325iX forum to measure the distance from the rear mounting bolt on the mount tower to the axle centerline on a stock iX. That would help me a lot to get the pan in the right place longitudinally.

The engine needs to be as low in the bay as it can be, without the pan hanging below the crossmember. I need to buy an E53 lower oil pan to bolt to the upper pan that I have so that I can get the thing at the right elevation.

Also see: http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108535

[The Dark Side of Will]

This would do 830 RPM at 30 MPH, barely,

So if an 700R4 3.06 car turns this... you can't use more than a small fraction of throttle or the trans will unlock/kickdown. How do you know how well the engine pulls or not at this speed/RPM since it will kick down if you breathe on the throttle?

[Series8217]

Not quite...
S62 with E53 X5 oil pan and front diff into E30 325iX body with E34 ZF transmission and E30 T-case. The transmission from a E34 530i (V8) has the right bellhousing. The rear case half from the Euro-market E34 525iX should bolt on to the V8 transmission and let me mount the transfer case.

Ah, cool. I was looking into an E30 LSx swap a month or two ago after seeing Vorshlag's car in GRM, but after reading more about it decided that wasn't really the chassis I wanted to work with. They look GREAT and are cheap to find and repair, but chassis rigidity is lacking, the rear suspension is poor, and putting in a V8 (or the LSx at least) requires a lot of hacking and some crazy fab like converting to hydraulic brake boost since the vacuum booster is too big to fit anywhere.

How well does the S62 fit into the engine bay of the E30?

[The Dark Side of Will]

The M60 fits very snugly into an E30 engine bay. Being DOHC, it is obviously bulkier than the LSx and leaves less room for all the other things.
The front sump of the RWD M60 fits perfectly around the RWD E30 crossmember.

The left cylinder head covers about three quarters of the stock hole where the vacuum booster mounts.
Simply converting to hydraulic brake boost is really not that hard. Quite a few 7's had hydroboosts. The E23 cars even had remote accumulators which make packaging even simpler. The Hydroboost conversion is pretty common M50 or S50 swapped E30's, as it leaves more room for the intake manifold.

The hard part of the brake setup for the M60 swap is that the entire linkage needs to be relocated.
See this thread for links to interesting ideas: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh ... ?t=1698125

The basis for most of the remote booster builds in the E30 is BMW's factory remote booster installation in V8 E34's. This uses a rocker arm to convert the push from the pedal into a pull which operates a pull rod, which pulls on another rocker arm which pushes on the remote booster. I purchased one of these setups that was already modified for use in an E30. I will probably end up using the E34 booster-end hardware with a custom pedal-end rocker arm similar to the fully custom LS1 swap linkage pictured in the above thread, but *inside* the firewall.





The brake linkage issue has been tackled in a couple of different ways and isn't that big a deal, IMO.
The steering linkage with the E53 V8 front diff looks like it'll take some thinking, however. Because the V8 sits "vertical" and the I6 is leaned over, the block skirt on the diff side of the I6 is higher. This means that the diff can tuck into the I6 much closer to the crankshaft centerline than it can with the V8. The diff sticks out the side of the pan more with the V8 and, as I'm finding out, interferes with more stuff. AND between the steering, diff, axle and driveshaft, a 2.5" exhaust pipe also has to find its way out.

The mid-sump of the AWD M60 *appears* to fit well around the AWD E30 crossmember, but I won't really know until I get the engine into the engine bay. I have a lot of measurements to take to convince myself that this will work before I drop $3-4K on a car.

And other than buying a harness, I haven't even touched the DME yet...

The big issue with the LS1 E30 swap appears to be the oil pan. The couple of swaps I've seen documented use a modified GTO oil pan. I can't help but think that the extreme rear sump configuration of the truck oil pan would work. That's a SWAG, though.
Because the Chevy bellhousing is large, it apparently doesn't fit all the way into the E30 trans tunnel. This means that the engine has to sit a couple of inches further forward of where it should be, which also means it has to be a little higher. I'm not sure if it could sit lower with the truck pan and go further back, or if modding the firewall to allow it to sit further back would then allow it to sit lower...

Anyway, for a number of reasons an M60 looks like a better swap into an E30 than an LSx.
However, the E36 crossmember configuration makes the M60 swap much harder, but the engine bay layout makes the LSx swap much easier. If you want an LSx powered BMW, start with an E36.

Edit: It looks like firewall mods to an E30 would be similar to firewall mods to a LSx Miata: http://flyinmiata.com/V8/Newton/index.php?UID=



Edit again: Another similar build: http://flyinmiata.com/projects/targa/Ta ... php?UID=31

[Series8217]

The M60 fits very snugly into an E30 engine bay. Being DOHC, it is obviously bulkier than the LSx and leaves less room for all the other things.
The front sump of the RWD M60 fits perfectly around the RWD E30 crossmember.

The left cylinder head covers about three quarters of the stock hole where the vacuum booster mounts.
Simply converting to hydraulic brake boost is really not that hard. Quite a few 7's had hydroboosts. The E23 cars even had remote accumulators which make packaging even simpler.
The hard part is that the entire linkage needs to be relocated.
See this thread for links to interesting ideas: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh ... ?t=1698125

I read the entirety of Garret's LS1 E30 build thread a few months back. With the S62 being so much larger than the LSx I figured it would be nearly impossible to fit.

I have a lot of measurements to take to convince myself that this will work before I drop $3-4K on a car.

Are E30s really $3k-$4k where you are? I have no problem finding them for $1k to $2k here running, and ~$600 if you need to bring a trailer... and they're California cars too.. Might be worth looking out here.

However, the E36 crossmember configuration makes the M60 swap much harder, but the engine bay layout makes the LSx swap much easier. If you want an LSx powered BMW, start with an E36.

Unfortunately there are no California smog-legal headers or manifolds that fit an E36 LSx car. No OEM manifolds fit due to the steering shaft placement. I traded emails with Terry Fair about the issue; they tested every GM manifold they could get their hands on when they were developing the swap. The steering shaft runs through the space that the #7 cylinder exhausts into. Custom headers are the only solution, and that won't get me past the BAR referee inspection. The E46 LSx is not well-developed; a few have been done and Vorshlag is building one now. I'm waiting on updates there to see if the manifold issue is any better.

Did you read up on Vorshlag's V8 E30 build? It looks like they just won the $2011 GRM Challenge with that car since they had time to tune the autocross setup this year and didn't blow up another T5. They did some rear subframe work, and I believe they also swapped in some E36 suspension parts. Might be good stuff to consider for yours.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I read the entirety of Garret's LS1 E30 build thread a few months back. With the S62 being so much larger than the LSx I figured it would be nearly impossible to fit.

It's a little surprising, but I think the M60 swap would be easier, mostly due to the oil pan, somewhat the size of the bellhousing. The S5D-310Z from the E34 530i even bolts *directly* to the stock E30 transmission mounts from the Getrag 260 AND uses a standard BMW driveshaft (E36 M3, I think).
Check out this thread for swap info: http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=223866
Heck, you can *BUY* the engine mount brackets for it...
As I implied above, I've seen one in person, had it up on a lift and crawled around it taking pictures. I may post some this weekend.

Are E30s really $3k-$4k where you are? I have no problem finding them for $1k to $2k here running, and ~$600 if you need to bring a trailer... and they're California cars too.. Might be worth looking out here.

If you want a 2 door, 5 speed iX in good condition, be prepared to pay that much. The front body structure, strut towers and floorpan/trans tunnel are different, so a RWD car can not be easily converted to AWD. OTOH, once he saw how nice my E34 is, my dad picked up an '88 325is 2 door automatic for my mom for $700. And really likes it. Had to do an on-site fuel pump replacement (20 minute job in an E30!) but drove it home.

Unfortunately there are no California smog-legal headers or manifolds that fit an E36 LSx car. No OEM manifolds fit due to the steering shaft placement. I traded emails with Terry Fair about the issue; they tested every GM manifold they could get their hands on when they were developing the swap. The steering shaft runs through the space that the #7 cylinder exhausts into. Custom headers are the only solution, and that won't get me past the BAR referee inspection. The E46 LSx is not well-developed; a few have been done and Vorshlag is building one now. I'm waiting on updates there to see if the manifold issue is any better.

Thought about using a bunch of Flaming River u-joints to re-route the steering shaft? Street rod builders deal with "exotic" steering shaft geometries all the time.
If you wanted to get really fancy, you could build 90 degree gearboxes using parts McMaster keeps in stock...
I may end up re-engineering the iX's power steering system to get the stock spool valve out of the way of the E53 diff, so I'm kinda tuned in to those issues right now..

Did you read up on Vorshlag's V8 E30 build? It looks like they just won the $2011 GRM Challenge with that car since they had time to tune the autocross setup this year and didn't blow up another T5. They did some rear subframe work, and I believe they also swapped in some E36 suspension parts. Might be good stuff to consider for yours.

I did, and it's an impressive build. A little intelligent development testing goes a hell of a long way. They say many times, however, that they'd do a LOT of things differently if not on such a strict budget. MANY of those things were the E36 parts selections. The "Rally Mods" to the trailing arms and the E36 diff cover with additional body mount help the rear suspension, but they still broke a half-shaft in the $2010 Challenge.

I have heard that either E28 or E34 rear subframes are fairly easy to install in E30's. This improves the forward weight bias (unfortunately by *adding* weight to the rear ) but generally solves all the component breakage problems that the E30 rear has. The E28/E34 rear can even accept the large case (210mm) diff, if you *REALLY* want to run some power...
Since I have access to both an E30 and an E34, I should get busy with a measuring tape and figure some of these things out...

[The Dark Side of Will]

Found a Quaife distributor who confirmed what we've suspected on E30Tech... The front diff across BMW's entire product line is the same as the 168mm small case diff used in 4 cylinder cars. The Quaife QDF6N for the rear of a Z3 4 cylinder fits the front end of an E53 X5.

The tallest gearset an X5 came with was 3.64... so the carriers used on the taller gearsets might be different due to the location of the ring gear mounting flange, but at least we've confirmed that it *IS* the 168mm family.

[The Dark Side of Will]

BMW produced the exact front diff I need... in the X5 3.0d... in Europe.

I can't get the carrier I need in this country.

The E53 case is wider across the bearings than the E46 case, so the carriers won't interchange. The 3.07 gearset requires a different flange location on the carrier than the 3.64 carrier has...

Le Sigh.

[AkursedX]

I have a car-buff friend living in Dusseldorf at the moment, if you want I can send her a message to see if she can get what you need. Send me a PM with specifics and I'll forward it along.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Front differential from BMW E53 X5 3.0d w/ manual transmission (3.07 ratio).

Production dates up to 12/2002 unconditionally
Could be as late as 09/2003 with the M57 engine.
BMW P/N: 31507508530

The M57N was available in parallel from 01/2003, but used the 3.23 ratio.

Thanks!
She in or married to the Air Force?

Not sure if you're familiar with it, but http://www.car-parts.com can search a huge number of salvage yards in the US. Is there a similar service in Europe or at least Germany?

[AkursedX]

Message Sent.

Thanks!
She in or married to the Air Force?

Actually she's a scientist who deals with metal lubrication for Henkel. She's also a regular blogger on autoholics.com I know her from my local VW group.