Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

Real tech discussion on design, fabrication, testing, development of custom or adapted parts for Pontiac Fieros. Not questions about the power a CAI will give.

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draven
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

Post by draven »

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Do you have a better photo of the journal above? That's the only one that looks concerning, but that could just be the photo.
Other than the embedded debris, the main bearings look beautiful. If a dental pick won't catch on the journals, then you should be good, as long as your clearances spec out.
If you're going to pull the crank out, you probably want to hit any questionable areas with 2000 grit paper. Obviously clean it fastidiously prior to reassembly.

That score on the rod bearing is concerning too... how does the journal look? Also, the rod bearings are considerably more worn than the mains.
It does look as if the crank journal in question above does have some debris embedded into its surface. Looks like it and the bearing (#3 thrust) took the brunt of the whatever came through the oiling system. Two pieces of metal came into the journal/bearing, one embedded itself into the bearing nicely and the other embedded as well into the bearing but broke apart and lodged into the journal as many small pieces. The dental pick does ever so lightly catch the spots you see in the picture above.

the rod bearing above(#4 rod) does have a nice groove , oddly enough however, I cannot see any rod journal damage or fragments embedded into either to create the groove. Might have been pinned between the oil feed hole and the bearing momentarily, while under load, before working its way out... will inspect more once the crank comes out, keep forgetting to get to the auto parts store for some properly sized hose to cover the rod studs..

I assume that to pull the IMS, the dorked up distributer O-ringed shaft must be removed, and prior to that the associated head must come off as well, correct? well at least I'll get to replace the o-ring with the proper long lasting type..
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draven
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

Post by draven »

Ok, mic'd and caliper'd the crank mains and rod journals..4 points of measure on each journal, each pair 90 degs off and on both sides of the journal, and all within spec and no discernable taper. (Granted my mic and caliper only go to .001" so there is some room for error) Also, crank shaft play is great as well.

My only concern at this point is a chunk out of the rear main journal and the debris in the main thrust journal. (see pics)

Rear Main bearing chunk
Image

Pics of Main thrust journal ( I also noticed that there is small amount of debris buildup just inside the fillet radius )

Image

Image

Image

Image

So, would it be more prudent to have the main journals taken down 10-20 thou or so or just have the mains polished?
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

For those, I would hit them with 2000 grit paper and see if they smooth out. That doesn't look bad.

Also, get a mic that can read to .0001 (or at least has a vernier for .0001's). Use it on the locations where you have the surface blemishes to determine how (if any) proud they are from the journal surface.
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

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while I've got the rotating assembly out of the block I've decided to have the assembly polished and balanced with arp rod bolts and sp pistons.. here's the quote I just got back from a local shop in south atlanta..

Crank Grinding-Crank kit-$200.00 (this includes a new crank if the original is unsalvagable)
Crank Polishing-$65.00
Rod honing for ARPs-$30.00 plus bolts
Rotating assembly balancing-$285.00 (<-- this seems a bit high, most balancing I've "read" up on goes from between 150$-200$)

Opinions welcome..
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Uh-oh... scope creep
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

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The Dark Side of Will wrote:Uh-oh... scope creep
Perhaps, just getting a cost idea on the necessities of building up for a turbo as I just got a line on a set of headers and cross over already plumbed for a turbo built for a 96 LQ1.

Maybe a total pipedream indeed..

I had already planned on having the assembly balanced..
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Yours is a '96, right?
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

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The Dark Side of Will wrote:Yours is a '96, right?
right.. with several cracks in the current custom front manifold I'm about to weld up..

No intention of going turbo immediately.. just get the car running, but if she's open, build her up right for not too much more..
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

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Update: sent the block off to have the block dipped, decked, honed, bored, and balanced.. with new pistons.. and arp rod studs all the work being performed by Ball Engines in Duluth GA.

block has been dipped and engine had to be bored over .01", decks looked good so now I'm waiting for it to be arp'd and assembly balanced.

I'm wondering if the incorrectly timed engine, too much stress, or too much fuel in the oil that led to the excess wear in the bore's in only 15K miles? I'm going to be an EMC309i convert when this is all over.. :D

Started tearing in to the heads and the exhaust valve seats look like a 15 year needing a severe dose of accutane.. the intake valve seats are lightly pitted (i.e. lap'able) however the intake valve faces/bottoms look like they've been shot peened.. the head seats look good so far...

Now my question is with the valve guide clearance specs... without a valve guide bore gauge what is the best way to measure the clearance. Is it best to put a dial gauge against the top of the valve stem, close the keeper groove, while fully seated and rock on two axis or is it better to extend the valve into the chamber at its approximate apex and then rock against a dial gauge? Doing both of the above techniques the valves to guide clearances came just out of spec while measuring the top of the valve stem while fully seated and really out of spec when extended to their apex with the dial gauge against the side of the valve seat.

I'm replacing the valves as I located an excellent deal for full set of clevite/mahle lq1 valves so I guess I may want to see how those seat into the current guides before I take more measurements..

Just inquiring, what are valve guide replacements going for in aluminum heads these days?
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

Post by Emc209i »

draven wrote: I'm going to be an EMC309i convert when this is all over.. :D
Dude, I have no idea how you're not already there. Talk about selling the car off to you in the nick of time.
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Series8217
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

Post by Series8217 »

draven wrote:Update: sent the block off to have the block dipped, decked, honed, bored, and balanced.. with new pistons.. and arp rod studs all the work being performed by Ball Engines in Duluth GA.

block has been dipped and engine had to be bored over .01", decks looked good so now I'm waiting for it to be arp'd and assembly balanced.

I'm wondering if the incorrectly timed engine, too much stress, or too much fuel in the oil that led to the excess wear in the bore's in only 15K miles? I'm going to be an EMC309i convert when this is all over.. :D
The only causes of accelerated cylinder bore wear besides overheating are way too much fuel, or running without a filter. You'll see scoring if you run without a filter and ingest crap. Overheating will show up on the pistons, they'll be scored or otherwise look nasty on the skirts. Most likely it just wasn't tuned right and the fuel washed all the oil off the cylinder walls, leading to accelerated wear. This will happen with any motor.

Also, you absolutely must hone the cylinders with a torque plate. My machinist (Paul Rossi at Rossi's Engine and Drivetrain in Gilroy, CA) ordered a custom torque plate based on the head dimensions, as there wasn't an off-the-shelf one. I forget who makes the torque plates, but it might be in their catalog now. They had listings for the other 60-degree motors.

We also shot-peened the block before machining to clean it up and smooth it out. This was not compressive shot-peening, just for cleaning and giving me less work to do when I deburred the block by hand. We decked the block a bit to make the surface true, but I don't remember by how much.
Started tearing in to the heads and the exhaust valve seats look like a 15 year needing a severe dose of accutane.. the intake valve seats are lightly pitted (i.e. lap'able) however the intake valve faces/bottoms look like they've been shot peened.. the head seats look good so far...

Now my question is with the valve guide clearance specs... without a valve guide bore gauge what is the best way to measure the clearance. Is it best to put a dial gauge against the top of the valve stem, close the keeper groove, while fully seated and rock on two axis or is it better to extend the valve into the chamber at its approximate apex and then rock against a dial gauge? Doing both of the above techniques the valves to guide clearances came just out of spec while measuring the top of the valve stem while fully seated and really out of spec when extended to their apex with the dial gauge against the side of the valve seat.

I'm replacing the valves as I located an excellent deal for full set of clevite/mahle lq1 valves so I guess I may want to see how those seat into the current guides before I take more measurements..

Just inquiring, what are valve guide replacements going for in aluminum heads these days?
I had bronze liners installed in my exhaust valve guides when my heads were done:
Image

We didn't touch the intake guides. The clearances were OK and we didn't have a source for replacement guides.

If the shop hasn't already cleaned and assembled the block, have them remove the casting flash in the drainback areas, such as by the timing chain, as well as chamfer the drainback passages from the heads. They'll need an old head gasket to match it.

Unfortunately I don't have itemized receipts anymore, so I'm not sure how much it all cost.

If you're going turbo eventually make sure the shop knows to set the piston ring gaps appropriately.
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draven
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

Post by draven »

Series,

Could you post a pic or circle the casting flash to be removed by the timing chain? I had already gone over with the engine builder the chamfer needed on the heads and left him the old head gasket but missed the imperfection near the timing chain.

Also, could you let me know the source of the bronze guides? I've found the cast iron version still out there and available. KLine bronze guide liners looked promising, and very DIY with proper air hammer but the damn installation kit is 700-900$ .

Well the car was delivered with l67 series II injectors installed unbeknownst to me without reconfiguring the ECU so no telling how long it ran prior to me receiving it and I ran it for about 4 weeks as such before I figured out the source of the fumes after solving the first fuel smell problem as he plugged the fuel vapor line just out of the gas tank.. yeeesh.. so 23lb injectors stock vs 36lb series II injectors, so ~60% more fuel per duty cycle... yeah that'll bath the engine in fuel...

I should have taken pics of the tops of the cylinders before I tossed them as there was literally 1/16" - 1/8" carbon on top in the chambers... it looked like charred flaky pilsbury biscuits when I pulled the head. I know your not supposed to use easy off on aluminum but I had to spot drip it onto some parts of the heads to get through the carbon.. then followed up with water to neutralize and then my own mixture of berkebile gum cutter with acetone, touline and xylene...

What's getting me spooked is that I'm going to miss something getting it back together and have "shoulda had an L67/Northstar" tatooed on my ass.. so please feel free to let me know anything I may have forgotten.. or may forget in the coming assembly...
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

Post by Series8217 »

draven wrote:Series,

Could you post a pic or circle the casting flash to be removed by the timing chain? I had already gone over with the engine builder the chamfer needed on the heads and left him the old head gasket but missed the imperfection near the timing chain.
The block is updside down in this pic. To the top left of the intermediate shaft (lower shaft in the photo), you can see a shiny area where it looks like I ground something off. I think that was it. I don't remember for sure though... that was almost ten years ago. http://www.pbase.com/series8217/image/72082625
Also, could you let me know the source of the bronze guides? I've found the cast iron version still out there and available. KLine bronze guide liners looked promising, and very DIY with proper air hammer but the damn installation kit is 700-900$ .
I think they were KLine liners.
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

draven wrote: Started tearing in to the heads and the exhaust valve seats look like a 15 year needing a severe dose of accutane.. the intake valve seats are lightly pitted (i.e. lap'able) however the intake valve faces/bottoms look like they've been shot peened.. the head seats look good so far...

Now my question is with the valve guide clearance specs... without a valve guide bore gauge what is the best way to measure the clearance. Is it best to put a dial gauge against the top of the valve stem, close the keeper groove, while fully seated and rock on two axis or is it better to extend the valve into the chamber at its approximate apex and then rock against a dial gauge? Doing both of the above techniques the valves to guide clearances came just out of spec while measuring the top of the valve stem while fully seated and really out of spec when extended to their apex with the dial gauge against the side of the valve seat.

I'm replacing the valves as I located an excellent deal for full set of clevite/mahle lq1 valves so I guess I may want to see how those seat into the current guides before I take more measurements..

Just inquiring, what are valve guide replacements going for in aluminum heads these days?
You check valve play with the valve OFF the seat, or with gauge pins in the guides and mics on the stems.

Are you planning to use composition or MLS head gaskets? If MLS or copper, the factory deck surface will not have a good enough surface finish to assure good results. If composition, continue.
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draven
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

Post by draven »

The Dark Side of Will wrote:You check valve play with the valve OFF the seat, or with gauge pins and mics.

Are you planning to use composition or MLS head gaskets? If MLS or copper, the factory deck surface will not have a good enough surface finish to assure good results. If composition, continue.
When I checked valve play with the valve off the seat they were waay out of spec.. .005-.007 worth of play.. makes sense now as to why you'd want to pull it off the seat as the seat will inhibit the radial movement on the stem in the guide.. duh.. my bad..

I haven't been able to find an MLS gasket for the LQ1 so I was plannning on going with victor reinz HG's...
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

Post by The Dark Side of Will »

Actual guide clearance and measured play at the valve tip are going to be very different numbers. You can think about the geometry and figure out why.

If the tip is the same distance above the top of the guide as the guide is long, then the play will be twice the clearance. So if you measured .007 of play, then you probably have ~.0035 clearance on a spec of .0005 to .001.
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draven
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

Post by draven »

I was measuring the play off the face of the valve with about 1" lift off the valve seat. That was reading .005-.007 + wobble

Also, with regards to valve guides, what is everyone's knowledge about cast iron vs powdered metal vs bronze alloy vs bronze liners?
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draven
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

Post by draven »

Series8217 wrote: The block is updside down in this pic. To the top left of the intermediate shaft (lower shaft in the photo), you can see a shiny area where it looks like I ground something off. I think that was it. I don't remember for sure though... that was almost ten years ago. http://www.pbase.com/series8217/image/72082625
I'm sooo not seeing it in that pic...my fault not your description... My block is at the shop and my spare is bagged up in a ware house so no way to eyeball it.

Is this it? (circled in red)

Image
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

Post by Series8217 »

Yeah somewhere by that circle. The casting flash was pretty bad there on my block. I don't think I have a "before" pic.
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Re: Rod and Crank bearing inspection; do I have to replace?

Post by draven »

Gentlemen, is there any differences in running valves that have a flat face vs a bowl face. The stock LQ1 exhaust valves have what looks to be a coated bowl face (intakes have a flat bear face) whereas some mahle clevite int/ex valves I just received have flat faces on both with a machined divot in the center.

Won't this divot be a source for carbon build up? Is there a reason for this divot? By my basic calcs the volume of the exhaust bowl and the divot have the same amount of capacity so compression shouldn't be altered.

Clevite/mahle or stock valves?

Thoughts?
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