Best engine for what I'm looking for?

[dhen]

Hi everyone,

Everything seems on track for me to pick up my first Fiero in a week. I'm pretty excited about it.

Anyways, it's an automatic 85 with the 2.5 engine. I want a manual transmission and more power. I've been reading as much as I can about swap options and this is what I came up with:

transmission: F23 from a 00-02 Cavalier. I found a good write-up about how to do this on another forum.

Here are the pros and cons of engines I've considered. I'm looking for something with low end grunt that would get me into the low 12s if possible. I have a MIG welder and have designed engine mounts, etc. before.

1) L67 supercharged

Pro: easy to modify, rock-solid reliability. Good documentation for the swap.
cons: not many. It's hard to find a low mileage one, though

2) L67 turbo

pro: see above. Turbo can also produce more boost = higher horsepower. I have L36 Camaro heads and intake already.
cons: I'd be designing a turbo system from scratch. This might be fun, though. Turbos take longer to spool up than superchargers and I have a turbo car already.

3) Northstar

pro: good numbers out of the box and it's aluminum.
cons: has a bad reputation for reliability. I haven't been able to find much info on how to do this swap, although it's been done. West Coast Fieros says on their webpage that this is a difficult swap. Very little aftermarket.

4) LS4.

pro: This would be great. An aluminum LS engine. Lots of cheap aftermarket goodies.
cons: Unless I missed something I would be designing my own system to get the transmission mounted up. I've never done that before. Is there a kit?

Am I missing something here? I'm leaning towards option 1.

Anyways, if there is a book or something that walks you through this, that would be great. I've been able to find information but not in one place.

Thanks

[The Dark Side of Will]

If you want to go fast easy, get the supercharged 3800. The swap is scienced out and about as fool proof as anything in the Fiero community. 250 WHP can crack 12's in a Fiero with decent traction.

Don't worry about mileage. Bore and bearing wear for fuel injected engines is almost non-existent. Replace all the gaskets while the engine's out of the car and never worry about it.

[CincinnatiFiero]

My L67 had 108k on it when I did the swap and it made perfect compression. I've driven more than one original motor 300k mile L67 and they were fine. I'd personally like to stay around 100k but don't limit yourself to hoping to find a sub 50k mile engine that's been out of production for a decade.

[Emc209i]

I wrote the F23 tutorial you read.

I'd recommend a supercharged 3800, with a cam, pulley, and tune (+320whp). I was around a turbo 3800 Fiero when it was built (changed from the supercharger), and although it was legendary in the straightaways, I don't remember having as much fun as we did when the car was supercharged. The turbo parts kept breaking also. The car when it was supercharged was unbreakable. Burnouts, sliding sideways, drag runs, autocross, nothing ever broke (save for the transmission, which was replaced with an F23). After the transmission swap, the car was a tank. I think that's more valuable than being able to freight train on the highway. It's also the easiest swap, so its a no brain'er to me. Your pro's and con's list is pretty spot on, you did good research.

[Shaun41178(2)]

Based on option you listed I say 3800 supercharged. You can always turbo it later if you want.

[dhen]

Thanks for getting back to me. I was leaning towards the L67 supercharged swap and just wanted to do my homework. I've been fascinated with these engines for years, so I'm going to be going that route.

Can anyone give me recommendations about where to get an engine? Junkyards are cheap, but I had a bad experience a few years ago with trying to save money on an engine that ended up costing me more than if I had started out with one from a better source. I hear good things about Morad, but they're pretty pricey.

Thanks for doing that writeup, Emc209i. I found it very useful.

PS 320 hp would be more than enough to keep me happy.

[CincinnatiFiero]

Ed Morad used to be the man to talk to. He's who I got my complete dropout from. Ed was sick or something or less present in the business and the guy who I dealt with later on was not nearly as nice or helpful.

But they are THE S1/2/3 3800 guys.

[jelly2m81]

Honestly the only downfall with the L67 / L36 is weight, but if your not going to build a purpose race car than it won't be an issue for you ( you will probably want to run higher spring rates in the rear though ).

Sure it's old, it's pretty low tech but they are pretty much bullet proof and does give these shit boxes some go. I wouldn't be too worried about one that is at or a little above 100k, it will probably work as well as a low mileage one. The swap has been done a million times, there's no guess work in it. Sinister here can do your PCM programming.

You will be satisfied with 320 HP, The first one I build dynoe'd 270 WHP and I gave quite a few rides in it, 4 specific people owned or were in the process of building a V8 Fiero. 1 local V8 guy sold his Fiero shortly after, the other V8 guy parked his and it sat for a number of years before he pulled the V8 and installed a L67, the other 2 in the process of their builds both stopped, sold their V8 and adapter plate shit and went the L67 route.

[Emc209i]

The problem with finding an engine is that the L67 came out of an American car. People who own American cars on the whole DO NOT know how to take care of engines. Compound that with having a GTP or supercharged badge on the side of the vehicle the engine came out of and you know someone thrashed the engine.

A member here bought a Grand Prix GTP that had a crankshaft that had snapped in half. It still ran. As durable as the L67 is, you can still destroy one if you oil starve it or beat the piss out of it when it's cold (like any engine). In the past, I've been safe and found low mileage engines from car-part.com with matching VIN numbers. I know some here have gotten lucky with high mileage "pullapart" engines, but its a gamble. Just plan ahead and find out what your budget is. In this case, you do get what you pay for. If you do the swap correctly, buying a low mileage motor will save you headaches down the road.

[CincinnatiFiero]

I've always called the GTP the White Trash AMG.

That said when I got my motor we had a 106k GTP motor and a 108k Buick Regal motor. I figured the owner of the Buick was probably older and the rest of the wrecked car was in nice shape.

[crzyone]

No comment lol. The L67 is a good factory replacement, just not the route I would go.

What do you want to use the car for?

[dhen]

What do you want to use the car for?

That's a good question. This will one day be a fun car for weekend drives. I have a lightweight turbo car already (an MGA with a CA18det engine), so I want a small car with more torque. I'm not going to race it, just want something fun.

[Aaron]

I hate the L67, with a passion, but in reading what he's looking for I think it's best. Either that, or dare I have the audacity to say, a SBC.

[jelly2m81]

Pretty sure we all agree the L67 isn't the ideal choice for an engine swap this day and age but end result, it is the best choice per cost currently.

Nobody has ever built a reliable proper Northstar swap, very few have pulled off the 3.4 TDC or Ecotech properly, all SBC and most LS series swaps underperform the cars those engine originally came attached to, and everyone is too cheap or too scared to install something modern.

That leaves the SII & SIII 3800 and :cough: 4.9L as the only clear choice for a swap that is reliable and where the engine works to at least it's factory engineered potential.

I fall under the cheap catagory, but *if* I ever care enough about my Fiero again I would only consider a boosted Ecotech or the LFX etc. Yes I swapped a 3800 into the wife's 88 this summer, that's what she wanted. Only problem I have with them is they are heavy as fuck and for that reason alone I doubt it would be an option for my own car.

[dhen]

Didn't realize that some people really don't like the L67. Is it the weight, or the fact that it's a common swap into Fieros and people are bored with hearing about it?

I'm pretty much sold on the L67, but I'm curious what route other people have gone.

Is there a page like this for Fieros?

http://www.britishv8.org/Photos-MG-Conversions.htm

Engine swaps are pretty common in MGs, and I've browsed that page for days looking for ideas. (My car is there,too, if anyone's curious.)

[Series8217]

Nobody has ever built a reliable proper Northstar swap, very few have pulled off the 3.4 TDC or Ecotech properly

I don't know about the Ecotec, but there are actually a lot of good 3.4 TDC swaps out there. It's a pretty simple swap, so you just don't hear much about them. I know of at least half a dozen out here in California that are running great, and most of those people don't post on the forums.

As for the Northstar, there are also a few reliable Northstar swaps, including Keith Huff's car and Curly's cars.

People who post on the forums don't seem to realize that they are still the minority of the Fiero community. A lot of older folks don't go on "that internet thing", but they still order parts from WCF, Held, and others, and they do engine swaps or pay others to do them.

[Aaron]

It's a lot of things. It's the weight, the 19th century technology, the poor fuel economy, the way the engine lacks soul, and the terrible noises it makes. One of the things that makes a Ferrari so great is how much personality the engine has, on top of it's ridiculous power. The 3800 was made to move Buick's in a way that no one inside the Buick had any idea it even had an engine. It would be as out of place in a Ferrari as a whore in church. Not saying a Fiero is a Ferrari, but for a lot of us it is our Ferrari. It's not a daily driver, it's not a grocery getter, it's a car we own for fun, to enjoy. And the 3800 wasn't made for cars like that.

I'd like to think I have a properly swapped 3.4 DOHC as well, and I have properly swapped one other for a guy in Oklahoma.

[The Dark Side of Will]

As for the Northstar, there are also a few reliable Northstar swaps, including Keith Huff's car and Curly's cars.

Oh, I see how it is...

I actually agree with the Northstar reliability comment. "Reliable" in my mind means that I can set off on a cross-country trip WITHOUT spare parts, a tool kit or a laptop. My E34 was reliable. A stock 2.8 Fiero isn't even reliable in my book, because of the potential for ignition module failure.

I have a feeling that every Northstar swap has some personality quirks that don't get written about on the forums. The mechanical reliability of the engine and plumbing reliability are easy enough... they just take a little money. The Shelby computer sounds good on paper, but I'm finding it's far from perfect as well... but probably not much worse than any aftermarket system short of a MoTeC. Obtaining OE reliability in a swapped car is genuinely difficult.

[Emc209i]

Didn't realize that some people really don't like the L67. Is it the weight, or the fact that it's a common swap into Fieros and people are bored with hearing about it?

It's just older technology. Most people here stay on top of the cutting edge tech and even own a much higher tech vehicle. So when anyone asks for opinions about what they should do when going to the drawing board, the members here kind of dread going back to the 60's (the 3800 was originally the Fireball V6) for options. The S2 and S3 engines are basically that architecture refined.

That said, the 3800 is a great engine, and the best option for you. Pulley, cam, tune, enjoy your car.

P.S. I'm in your shoes right now. I plan on going the same path.

[dhen]

OK, I understand. I don't mind old technology, though, if it gets me where I want to be. And with respect to all, these cars are 25+ years old...

The car I'm picking up on Saturday is an automatic. My plan is still to use an F23 transmission, but I was looking into paddle shifters and it seems like this might be a good option. It would allow me to avoid setting up the clutch, pedals, cables, and flywheel and would allow quicker shifts. I could leave the original transmission on the engine and save myself a headache there.

Does anyone have experience setting these up? Are they a major PITA? I've seen some computers for these transmissions for less than $500. Might not be so bad. Wiring doesn't scare me if I have a diagram to go off of. This would be as much DIY as possible.

Any feedback would be appreciated. I'd rather find out now than the hard way.

Thanks