Junkyard F23 transmission and engine advice.

[dhen]

After hearing about how weak my Isuzu transmission is, I went to the junkyard today. I found a manual Cavalier that had the engine already removed. Is this the transmission I want? If so, what should I make sure I pull with it? Do I need the cables, for example?



Also, I can get a whole L67 for less than $500 from the junkyard here if I pull it myself, but it's a gamble, of course. In your experience, are these engines usually OK if they look clean or am I better off paying extra for an Ed Morad engine?

Thanks,

Darian

[Emc209i]

You work fast. That is the transmission you need. And that's exactly how everyone hopes to find it, two bolts from being removed.

You should grab the front transmission mount; you may not need it, but you'll have it if you decide to use it - they can be hard to find. Also snip the speedometer and reverse light pigtails away from the harness with a few feet of wire so you can wire them into your harness. I recommend replacing the throwout bearing when you do the swap, but they are very expensive, costing upwards of $100. You way wish to squeeze some life out of the throwout bearing that's with it if its a low mile transmission. If its been exposed to the elements for long, it might not be usable. You will not need the cables from the Cavi.

The engine question is a mixed bag. I would possibly do it if I found an extremely clean engine that looked taken care of. But then again I know what to look for. Your call.

The front transmission mount looks like this:
Image belongs to Mattwa

[dhen]

Thanks again. I can't get over there until Tuesday, but I don't think these transmissions go that fast. If so, I'll have to look harder...

I'm trying to stick to a budget, but at the same time that is what can get you in trouble.

Appreciate the feedback as always.

[Emc209i]

, but I don't think these transmissions go that fast. If so, I'll have to look harder...

Not having a location under your username will buy you a few days.

[dhen]

We did have a rainstorm here a couple of weeks ago and the fill cap was off. If the transmission hasn't been run, would water still destroy it? I'm wondering if it's worth the risk.

[Emc209i]

There's three drain plugs that take an allen key. Unbolt that sucker and flip it up on its side to let the water out of the side drain plug. If a liter or two of water comes out you might need to be worried. Otherwise, I don't think it's a big deal. Spin the input shaft to be sure its not frozen. If not, I think you just need some more ATF and you'll be ready to roll. The bearings are in the end of the case, up away from the "pan".

[dhen]

Thanks. That's kind of what I was thinking. It'd be different if I drove it.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Also, I can get a whole L67 for less than $500 from the junkyard here if I pull it myself, but it's a gamble, of course. In your experience, are these engines usually OK if they look clean or am I better off paying extra for an Ed Morad engine?

Thanks,

Darian

If you're pulling it yourself, you're probably ok in a car that's been wrecked. Preferably rear-ended, for obvious reasons. If there's not a scratch on the car, then it may be in the yard for engine or transmission problems.

[dhen]

I pulled it myself. It turned through the gears OK although I wasn't able to shift it into reverse with the shifter. I figured that was some sort of safety thing since I wasn't able to even move the shifter into the reverse position.

It looked pretty clean inside. There was no fluid except a few drops of pink transmission fluid.



By the way, what's this plastic thing I circled for?



This seal is damaged. I figured it was from when the guy before me took the engine out. I doubt it's hard to replace.



What do you think?

[Shaun41178(2)]

looks good. don't know what the black thing is. Any reason you want to go manual instead of sticking with the 4t65e that the 3800 came with?

[Emc209i]

That's a good looking transmission, good find.

There's a reverse lock out from 5th gear. This prevents the driver from pulling the stick back into reverse while cruising down the freeway. If you shift from 5th to reverse, the reverse gate is blocked by a ramp which shifts back to neutral. Try shifting from neutral to reverse, should go right in.

The black connector circled is where the hydraulic fluid line connects. That's where you'll plug your adapter from Thelin in, and adapt your stock clutch line (which you'll have to install once you switch the pedals and other equipment). There's a one way valve/bleeder that's missing. I'd recommend you find that also, it'll make bleeding the clutch a cinch.

The pink transmission fluid is simply Dextron III/VI. This transmission takes automatic transmission fluid instead of expensive manual transmission fluid like synchromesh. I consider that a huge plus in my book.

The axle seal is an easy replacement. Pry the old one out and hammer the new one in with a wooden block over the seal to prevent damage from the hammer.

Here's a picture I took of the adapter plugged into the hydraulic line. You can see the one way valve between the black plug and the adapter from Thelin:

[dhen]

Thanks for the replies.

Where do I get this adapter from Thelin? Sorry, I'm new to these cars.

As far as manual transmissions go, I just prefer them. I like the control I get.

[Emc209i]

https://www.noidearecords.com/thelinsells/kits.html

Under "Dog Bone kit". You can buy a few other F23 swap parts there too, or make your own. Review the tutorial for more information.

[Shaun41178(2)]

Thelin stuff looks top notch. He practically makes it plug and play. Not to mention he did the ecotech swap so anyone can easily follow his lead on that by mearly spending a couple bucks.

[ericjon262]

just FYI, thelin's rear trans mount is designed to fit 88 model cradles. the mount bracket won't fit the earlier cradles without either clearancing the mount bracket, or the cradle due to the location of the rear tierod mounts. there were a couple of guys on the other forum making mounts(quality? ), I made mine when thelin's were the only option, I based my mount of of his, except with a notch to clear the tierod. the sunfire/cavalier transmission doesn't have the same mounting provisions that the rear does, you're probably best off making your own.

unfortunately, the only parts thelin sells that will be useful in a pre-88 car, will be the shift linkage, and the hydraulic adapter. I made my own shift linkage, but it remains untested, if I did it again (I will eventually) I would have designed them with custom cables and come from another angle. to allow more clearance around my turbo.







I'd post pictures of my mounts, but I don't think I have any good ones, and honestly, I plan to re do them in the somewhat near future.

[ericjon262]

there's also a thread on the other forum about using BMW clutch lines in place of the adapter. as the line has both types of fitting installed already, pretty much a drop in replacement.

http://www.fiero.com/forum/Forum2/HTML/128722.html

Originally posted by FieroGT42:

I've been keeping an eye out for an easy and inexpensive way to adapt an F23/F40 quick disconnect to the stock cluck system while I'm doing an auto-to-manual swap, and I found a solution I'd like to share.

Since I'm converting to a manual, I need to run a new clutch line including a flex line, so this is perfect for me. I am not endorsing any manufacturers or retailers below. This is just the information I compiled.


F23/F40 HTOB clutch line adapter/flex line

I've been looking for a suitable adapter or a way to make one since I discovered that the F23/F40 clutch line coming from the bleeder junction is plastic and is obviously not suitable for flaring to meet a stock Fiero or custom line.

If you have the bleeder Y-pipe junction block thingamajig with the quick-disconnect intact, you can remove the plastic line and attach the steel end to an adapter or brake nut of your choice. On the F23, the supply side tube inside the plastic line is just a few hundredths under 1/4" OD so it will fit nicely inside 1/4" adapter. I welded one to seal it, then filled the cavity with JB Weld, but I was curious to find out if someone already made a solution for those who can't or don't want to bother with this.

Knowing that the F23 was used in the F-body (Cavalier/Sunfire) as well as the Delta platform (Cobalt, G3, etc.) and many others, I looked at what they were using. Eventually I found someone making adapters for $60-80, and another who made a part starting with a BMW clutch line. The aftermarket BMW lines for $40+ looked a little Autozone/Pep Boys ricer quality to me, so dug a little more and found the part that it originally replaced. Apparently there's a Getrag in a BMW E46 that uses the same connector on the HTOB side and the other end is threaded. With just an adapter or clutch line threaded into that, you can have a German OEM quality flex hose and HTOB/clutch line adapter manufactured in one piece without having to hack, weld, braze or crimp. Since I'm swapping from auto to manual, this was ideal for me. I'd have needed to buy a flex hose anyway. If you're swapping an F23/F24 into an auto, or if you're swapping into a manual and have an old flex hose, this would probably work for you.

The part is about 16"-ish long. The flex section is 31 cm/12" and the usable length from the F23/F40 plastic bleeder junction is 37.5 cm / 14 3/4". The quick disconnect plugs into the F23 and uses the same clip as the stock hose, and the other end terminates in a female metric M 10 x 1.0 bubble flare. The stock Fiero lines used M12x1.0 bubble flare, so a one-piece adapter should let you use this for a flex line while minimizing the number of connections that can leak. Since I'm running a new clutch line, and I think 3/16 will be easier to bleed than 1/4", I'll have a single 12mm-10mm adapter on my clutch master instead.

The prices I found below are for the cost in USD including shipping to central USA. There are flashy stainless braided variants of untested quality and durability out there ranging from $40 to $80 shipped, but the OEM part is even more affordable and may actually be more reliable. And one of the biggest benefits, to me, is that there is no welding, brazing or other "Mickey Mousing" to use it.

I bought the OEM part. Here's what you can expect to receive:







These are the OEM part numbers and applications. You can probably get the part from any BMW dealer for these cars or use them to check interchanges:

These are the parts and sources I found:

Code: Select all

[b][U]OEM:[/U][/b]

[U]$	Part #			Manufacturer		retailer[/U]
28	W0133-1815281-FTE	FTE			Amazon.com
*	21 52 6 774 267		(same as above)
*	323E.352E.03		(same)
35	21526774267		Genuine BMW part	ECSTuning.com
35	21526774267 (41523 )	Genuine BMW part	secarpart.com
37	21526774267 		Genuine BMW part	(various dealership websites)

[strike]NOTE: FTE/EPS has been making OEM European parts for over 60 years. It may be an exact OEM part.
In any case, I'd expect it to be of the same quality.[/strike]
I've confirmed that the FTE is in fact the OEM part, so any of the above numbers should be genuine.


[b][U]Aftermarket braided SS:[/U][/b]

[U]$	Part #			Manufacturer		retailer[/U]
36	18/33, 207		?			Euro-wise.com
40+	AP-E46M3-400		Agency Power 		many various websites
42.36	SSCLC160		?			from turner motorsport
45	SS-CLU-02		Rogue Engineering	Rogue Engineering

The Agency Power/Turner parts are generally thought by many Bimmer enthusiasts to come from the
same manufacturer. Rogue Engineering may have a different supplier or make their own stuff. I didn't
do that much research since I didn't use their parts.

Jason

[dhen]

Thanks for the info. I'd like to do as much as I can myself, so that's something to look into.

[Emc209i]

Just remember that that hose costs twice what Thelin charges for his line adapter, and the hose also requires another adapter on the end of it to go from 10mm to 12mm. Thelin's adapter will not only be more reliable, but also have fewer parts to fail. And it costs half as much. Food for thought.

[dhen]

Good point.

[jelly2m81]

How much does Thelin charge for his adapter? That BMW hose is only 32 bux on Amazon. Get the M10 inverted flare nut for it and drill the hole out to 1/4" and flare it to the existing Fiero clutch hardline, problem solved.