Real Fiero Tech

Thinking about selling my Outback and getting a Cayenne. I'm open to other options but haven't been able to find much that's comparable besides a Range Rover.

I need something that has better off-road gearing than the Outback so it will need proper gearing such as a low range gearbox or a very low first gear. The 1st-gen Cayenne has a low-range gearbox with center diff lock, and optional (but very rare) swaybar disconnects and locking rear diff. The 2nd-gen has the locking center and rear but no low-range or swaybar disconnects. 1st gear is shorter though.

I need something with at least 5000 lbs towing capacity, and preferably more. I need to be able to tow my track car, preferably in an enclosed trailer. The Cayenne tows 7700 lbs.

I need something with good ground clearance, and the Cayenne has optional air suspension which gives ~11 inches of ground clearance at max height on stock tires. That's a lot better than my Outback.

I would prefer something with nice interior appointments since it will share daily driver duties with my M3 (or replace the M3 if I sell it).

Other vehicles I've considered:
* M62-powered Range Rover (not Sport): PROS: cheap, good towing capacity, looks better than pre-facelift Cayenne. CONS: questionable on-road handling, questionable reliability
* BMW X5 -- PROS: Cheap, good on-road handling, good looks CONS: less towing capacity than the Cayenne and RR, very bad off-road, little ground clearance
* Saab 9-7X Aero -- PROS: Looks great, LS2 powered, unique, uses GM parts, CONS: impossible to find, doesn't have low range but could be swapped in from a Trailblazer, needs suspension modifications to be off-road capable

I've also considered a conversion van or a Sprinter, since I could set it up for sleeping / lounging while at the track or on road trips.

Budget is $15k.

Any other ideas?

E350 Powerstroke 4WD?

Jeep Grand Cherokee or SRT8. The ones like mine are mostly geared toward street use, but they have tall gearing and a trailer hitch is easy to add. The new SRT has air suspension so can be raised/lowered, and with the 8-speed the gearing is just as tall. They come with two hitches and are rated somewhere in the 7s. The base GC like my Mom's still does good on power, 370, and has a low range 4x4. They're expensive new, but not Cayanne expensive.

Aaron wrote:Jeep Grand Cherokee or SRT8. The ones like mine are mostly geared toward street use, but they have tall gearing and a trailer hitch is easy to add. The new SRT has air suspension so can be raised/lowered, and with the 8-speed the gearing is just as tall. They come with two hitches and are rated somewhere in the 7s. The base GC like my Mom's still does good on power, 370, and has a low range 4x4. They're expensive new, but not Cayanne expensive.

The WK SRT8 only has a 3500 lb towing capacity (apparently because of the W5A580 transmission -- it's the same as the V6 models). The other V8 models look OK. 7200 lbs for the 5.7L and 6500 for the 4.7L.

WK2s are more than double my budget.

The Dark Side of Will wrote:E350 Powerstroke 4WD?

Interesting idea. I would definitely consider building an expedition vehicle out of one of these. I had looked at them before but didn't realize they had such a high towing capacity. Looks like an E-350 has a 10,000 lb towing capacity-- that may be enough to tow both my Fiero and my friend's S2000 to the track, assuming an aluminum trailer that weighs 4000 lbs or less.

The problem is these are not off-road capable out of the box, and have no luxury appointments at all.. so I'm looking at at least 8k to prep it, but base price is the same as a first-gen Cayenne. If I just do expedition / off-road / tow and keep the M3 as a daily it would work.

Along the same line as the Cayenne, but a Touraeg V10 TDI would make for a nice tow-rig

I know I'm not going to convince you, but I really think you should look into the Jeep some more. A nice WK1 SRT8 can be had for $30 easy, and a nice WK2 can be had for the same.

The WK1 SRT8 like mine, you say the tow capacity is limited by the trans. The only way I could see that is because towing traditionally requires more transmission work on the highways because of the frequent kick downs needed to maintain speed. I'd disagree with this on the SRT8. Even in 5th on the highway it's got plenty of power to spare, especially because the revs are kept fairly highly. But in manual mode, you maintain near full control of the trans. The only time it'll shift a gear without your command is it you hit redline and are still trying to accelerate, it'll kick up to the next gear. But it will not downshift, even wide open, and it won't upshift even if you're sitting at 6100 rpm or using cruise control. So you're towing 8,000 pounds in 5th, encounter a hill, and speed drops to 70 from 80. You can floor it, I'm confident you'd get it back up to 80 considering you'd be at 2800rpm, and without a gear change. Or you can keep partial throttle, hold 70, and come back up to 80 after the hill.

Aaron wrote:I know I'm not going to convince you, but I really think you should look into the Jeep some more. A nice WK1 SRT8 can be had for $30 easy, and a nice WK2 can be had for the same.

Budget is 15k.

There are serious legal ramifications to towing beyond the rated capacity. Insurance will walk away from covering any kind of accident, at fault or otherwise, so the SRT8 is out anyway.

AkursedX wrote:Along the same line as the Cayenne, but a Touraeg V10 TDI would make for a nice tow-rig

Apparently the Touraegs have way more problems than the Cayenne despite being on the same platform. VW uses their own electronics... And build quality. I wish it were not the case; the Touraeg is a better looking vehicle and the V10 TDI is awesome.

Series8217 wrote:

The Dark Side of Will wrote:E350 Powerstroke 4WD?

Interesting idea. I would definitely consider building an expedition vehicle out of one of these. I had looked at them before but didn't realize they had such a high towing capacity. Looks like an E-350 has a 10,000 lb towing capacity-- that may be enough to tow both my Fiero and my friend's S2000 to the track, assuming an aluminum trailer that weighs 4000 lbs or less.

The problem is these are not off-road capable out of the box, and have no luxury appointments at all.. so I'm looking at at least 8k to prep it, but base price is the same as a first-gen Cayenne. If I just do expedition / off-road / tow and keep the M3 as a daily it would work.

Nice van.
I think you're underestimating their off-road capability. It's an F-350 with a van body (as evidenced by the towing capacity)... so if a stock F350 can go somewhere, a stock E350 can get there too. Obviously, nothing but an enclosed trailer beats a van for moving stuff.

How much luxury do you need? Sat Radio, A/C and cruise control would do it for me... It's not like you need heated seats in SoCal.

AkursedX wrote:Along the same line as the Cayenne, but a Touraeg V10 TDI would make for a nice tow-rig

I've thought for years that VAG should offer a version of the R8 with that engine

Aaron wrote:I know I'm not going to convince you, but I really think you should look into the Jeep some more. A nice WK1 SRT8 can be had for $30 easy, and a nice WK2 can be had for the same.

The WK1 SRT8 like mine, you say the tow capacity is limited by the trans. The only way I could see that is because towing traditionally requires more transmission work on the highways because of the frequent kick downs needed to maintain speed. I'd disagree with this on the SRT8. Even in 5th on the highway it's got plenty of power to spare, especially because the revs are kept fairly highly. But in manual mode, you maintain near full control of the trans. The only time it'll shift a gear without your command is it you hit redline and are still trying to accelerate, it'll kick up to the next gear. But it will not downshift, even wide open, and it won't upshift even if you're sitting at 6100 rpm or using cruise control. So you're towing 8,000 pounds in 5th, encounter a hill, and speed drops to 70 from 80. You can floor it, I'm confident you'd get it back up to 80 considering you'd be at 2800rpm, and without a gear change. Or you can keep partial throttle, hold 70, and come back up to 80 after the hill.

Transmission rating for towing is more related to fluid temp and heat throughput, which is more related to torque converter slip than downshifts. Most converter clutches can't handle full engine torque, so hill climbing is done with the converter unlocked, which is what drives up fluid temps.

GM's 4L80E is a notable exception, with converter clutch rated for 500+ ftlbs.

The Dark Side of Will wrote: I think you're underestimating their off-road capability. It's an F-350 with a van body (as evidenced by the towing capacity)... so if a stock F350 can go somewhere, a stock E350 can get there too.

The body of a vehicle has as much to with its off-road capability as anything else. Approach and departure angles, breakover angle, and tire fitment are all effected by the body.

The E-350 will need chopped bodywork and fender flares to fit the same tires, and may need different front and rear bumpers to match the approach and departure angles of the F-350.

The Dark Side of Will wrote: How much luxury do you need? Sat Radio, A/C and cruise control would do it for me... It's not like you need heated seats in SoCal.

A comfortable, quiet interior, adjustable steering wheel, excellent seats, excellent sound system, independent suspension ride quality... I really can't stand driving my Outback after putting 10,000 miles on the M3. I guess I will have to do some test driving.

Series8217 wrote:

The Dark Side of Will wrote: I think you're underestimating their off-road capability. It's an F-350 with a van body (as evidenced by the towing capacity)... so if a stock F350 can go somewhere, a stock E350 can get there too.

The body of a vehicle has as much to with its off-road capability as anything else. Approach and departure angles, breakover angle, and tire fitment are all effected by the body.

The E-350 will need chopped bodywork and fender flares to fit the same tires, and may need different front and rear bumpers to match the approach and departure angles of the F-350.

The Dark Side of Will wrote: How much luxury do you need? Sat Radio, A/C and cruise control would do it for me... It's not like you need heated seats in SoCal.

A comfortable, quiet interior, adjustable steering wheel, excellent seats, excellent sound system, independent suspension ride quality... I really can't stand driving my Outback after putting 10,000 miles on the M3. I guess I will have to do some test driving.

Haha... BMW's best spoiled you. The M3 is a really nice car, though.

On the GM trucks, the size of the Allison dictates that the diesel vehicles have a factory body lift installed, which improves the approach/departure angles. I think something similar happens with the Fords, as the F-350's sit pretty high (although gasoline ones are pretty rare and I don't have a good basis for compariosn). There were a lot of Diesel E-350 4WD's running around Victory base in Iraq, and they sat pretty high also and wouldn't have any trouble going to bigger than stock tires. Diesel E-350's are fairly rare stateside, though.

A van more or less inherently has a better approach angle than a truck body, while the departure angle will be heavily influenced by the choice of 12 or 16 passenger body length.

Pretty sure the 3500 lbs SRT8 limit is due to the park pin in the trans. You've already ruled out the SRT8, but as long as you didn't park on a hill without the parking brake engaged, it should be fine.

The Dark Side of Will wrote: There were a lot of Diesel E-350 4WD's running around Victory base in Iraq, and they sat pretty high also and wouldn't have any trouble going to bigger than stock tires. Diesel E-350's are fairly rare stateside, though.

Don't forget that the E-350s never came with 4WD from Ford. They're mostly Quigley conversions performed before delivery. So if you saw a Diesel E-350 4WD it was already modified with a lift and whatnot to accommodate the front drive axle and transfer case. I think the minimum is a 4" lift, but I'm sure it can be ordered with whatever else is desired.

Yeah, I can buy an existing conversion -- in fact that's preferable -- but the 4x4 conversions are rare and expensive down here so I might just want to DIY it..

Unsafe At Any Speed wrote:Pretty sure the 3500 lbs SRT8 limit is due to the park pin in the trans. You've already ruled out the SRT8, but as long as you didn't park on a hill without the parking brake engaged, it should be fine.

In the event of an accident, at fault or not, insurance will drop the case if they discover you towing over the limit. It doesn't matter if the only reason is a weak "park pin in the trans". Illegal towing and they will walk away. I'm not going to tow 9000 lbs behind a vehicle rated for 3500 lbs whether or not someone says it's OK on the Internet.

Series8217 wrote:

The Dark Side of Will wrote: There were a lot of Diesel E-350 4WD's running around Victory base in Iraq, and they sat pretty high also and wouldn't have any trouble going to bigger than stock tires. Diesel E-350's are fairly rare stateside, though.

Don't forget that the E-350s never came with 4WD from Ford. They're mostly Quigley conversions performed before delivery. So if you saw a Diesel E-350 4WD it was already modified with a lift and whatnot to accommodate the front drive axle and transfer case. I think the minimum is a 4" lift, but I'm sure it can be ordered with whatever else is desired.

Yeah, I can buy an existing conversion -- in fact that's preferable -- but the 4x4 conversions are rare and expensive down here so I might just want to DIY it..

I didn't realize they were all conversions... Does that still end up within your budget?

GM offers the detuned Duramax in their vans with the 4L80E trans. I don't think I've ever seen a 4WD one. I @$$umed Ford, as usual, had better cool-product sense than GM and built the diesel 4WD vans themselves. I obviously hadn't looked into it very far at all.

The Dark Side of Will wrote: Yeah, I can buy an existing conversion -- in fact that's preferable -- but the 4x4 conversions are rare and expensive down here so I might just want to DIY it..

I didn't realize they were all conversions... Does that still end up within your budget?
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Yeah I found one with a 7.3 in Santa Cruz: http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/ct ... 05295.html

I'm sure it will be sold by the time I'm ready to buy one though. I need a couple months.

GM offers the detuned Duramax in their vans with the 4L80E trans. I don't think I've ever seen a 4WD one. I @$$umed Ford, as usual, had better cool-product sense than GM and built the diesel 4WD vans themselves. I obviously hadn't looked into it very far at all.

GM didn't make Duramax 4WD vans either. Quigley will build them though. If I go with a newer van I'll shop for an '06 Express/Savana Duramax.. the Duramax is apparently much more reliable than the 6.0 Powerstroke. If I go with the Ford I think I'll shop for 7.3 Powerstroke.

All '07+ diesels in the US have the evil particle trap and I'd prefer to not have to deal with that down the road, so that limits me to only one year of Chevy van because the Duramax didn't come in the Express until '06.

how about Suburbans or Excursions? both available 2wd/4wd, diesel, gas, Suburbans came with manuals in the past if you dig that, a conversion wouldn't be hard either. and a 3/4 ton will tow pretty well too.

leaves money in the budget for custom stuff too...


http://www.ebay.com/itm/GMC-Suburban-25 ... ars_Trucks

If I were going the suburban route though, I would try and find a mint 73-91, they're tougher, already have a solid front axle, and look way better.

ericjon262 wrote:how about Suburbans or Excursions? both available 2wd/4wd, diesel, gas, Suburbans came with manuals in the past if you dig that, a conversion wouldn't be hard either. and a 3/4 ton will tow pretty well too.

leaves money in the budget for custom stuff too...


http://www.ebay.com/itm/GMC-Suburban-25 ... ars_Trucks

If I were going the suburban route though, I would try and find a mint 73-91, they're tougher, already have a solid front axle, and look way better.

Not enough towing capacity :-/

If It's going to tow less than 10,000 pounds, I don't see any better choice than a Cayenne. A Cayenne will tow 7700 and meets all other requirements. Alternative choices will need to be able to make up for the lack of luxury and handling by allowing me to tow two cars

EDIT: Didn't realize the Excursions came with the 7.3L Diesel. Apparently they have an 10,000 lb towing capacity in that configuration. Interesting idea. How do they do off road? Besides the major loss in functionality compared to a cargo van body, they do have a 2,000 lb lower GCWR, but that may still be OK.
Something like this right? http://www.carsforsale.com/used-cars-fo ... -225722425

Series8217 wrote:
EDIT: Didn't realize the Excursions came with the 7.3L Diesel. Apparently they have an 10,000 lb towing capacity in that configuration. Interesting idea. How do they do off road? Besides the major loss in functionality compared to a cargo van body, they do have a 2,000 lb lower GCWR, but that may still be OK.
Something like this right? http://www.carsforsale.com/used-cars-fo ... -225722425

Exactly. and IIRC, they are based heavily on the F250-350 chassis, so I'm sure there is a decent aftermarket for lift kits and suspension upgrades. I'd bet too that more than one conversion company has made more luxurious models as well.

as far as off road capability, I'd bet they're comparable to a square body chevy 4x4, probably a little better, and they do decent off road. not top dog by any means, but can handle their own well.