Real Fiero Tech

Aaron wrote:I was reading your posts about that, Bully sounds like the way to go. I really don't think it was my clutch or flywheel causing the slip though. To all of your more experienced eyes how do they look?

not much to see with the pressure plate in the way...

Ha. Forgot to add the rest of the pics. The brown color on the inside of the first two pics is dust, it removed with my fingers.

Looks like it's been slipping but it doesn't look like there is any oil contamination, which in my experience appears as a brown coloration.

Could your throwout bearing be binding and not releasing the pressure plate fully sometimes?

Everything's seen a lot of heat... no doubt about that. I don't see anything that jumps out as looking like there's been a problem with oil. There would be patterns in the clutch dust and it would be more like clutch mud or clutch sludge if there were oil involved.

Do you see oil deposits on the back of the flywheel?

How does your throw out bearing and the support sleeve sleeve look? If your clutch was slipping sometimes and not others, it might have been problems with the throw out mechanism. [EDIT: Series beat me to it]

Did you observe the recommended break-in for the clutch? that's actually important for the same reasons are bedding brake pads is important. My Spec Stage 3 is solid now, but slipped when it was brand new and I was breaking in my engine.

Have you called ClutchNet to discuss your problem?

You may just not have enough clutch for your engine. Did it slip more in any particular gear?

Actually... upon closer inspection, there are tracks coming from 4 of the flywheel bolts. Did you use thread sealer or locking compound on them?

One more observation that may or may not be related. Upon sitting for a long time, I'd need to pump the clutch pedal several times before it regained a normal feel. It probably wasn't bled 100%.

I haven't called clutchnet, probably won't either I've heard their service sucks, and I like the fact that the Bully PP weighs less since I encountered high RPM shifting problems with the Clutchnet. I probably did not follow the break in procedure. If I need to replace the clutch again (This would be the car's 3rd in like 10,000 miles), I'd go for a Bully stage 4.

The clutch only slipped on about half of my drives. When it did NOT slip, it help 100% in every gear, even 5th gear at full boost. When it DID slip, it'd slip in any gear as soon as boost and the cams came on. Flywheel is dry, no oil deposits on the back.

Interesting observation about the flywheel bolts, I see those tracks for sure. All 6 bolts did have locktite, and needed the air gun to remove.

Did you check the clutch release cross shaft bearing for any binding? Maybe under certain conditions it could bind and not let the pressure plate reach full clamp load. Same goes for the slave cylinder as it might have a rough spot too.

100% not a fan of Clutch Net... they are worthless. Waited 6 weeks for a special ordered clutch (just like the one in the car currently - gave them the original build #), once it shows up, its different, different (RED) pressure plate, and had the lightest clutch pedal feel of any Fiero I have ever driven. Their "Red" - high clamp load pressure plate was weaker than a stock replacement Fiero one. Needless to say it slipped. Given pictures of the differences showing that the clutch ordered didn't match the clutch delivered, they didn't do anything to correct their error. We ended up putting a Spec Stage 3+ clutch in it (5 days from order to delivery).

Unless there's something glaringly wrong with the throw out mechanism (bearing, support sleeve on transmission, throw out fingers, cross shaft bearings, slave cylinder), I think there just wasn't enough loctite on the bolt threads to seal against oil seepage. The tracks from the bolt heads are the only evidence of anything causative that I've seen in the pics.

Aaron: Can you inspect and/or get a pic of the throw out bearing support sleeve on the transmission?
Also: What application is your oil level switch from? There's a 3 pin unit that puts an oil temp sensor in the same housing as the level switch. It's used in C5 and C6 Corvettes.
EDIT: Also: What product did you use to paint your oil pan?

Difficulty shifting at high RPM could be clutch hydraulics or throw out mechanism. When my hyds decide to work, I have no problem shifting my 282 at 7k. (I've been holding off on buying a new MC until I get the HTOB transmission assembled/installed)

Guru: Did CN at least give you your money back?

The Dark Side of Will wrote:I think there just wasn't enough loctite on the bolt threads to seal against oil seepage. The tracks from the bolt heads are the only evidence of anything causative that I've seen in the pics.

Are you talking about the flywheel bolts? 60 degree V6 cranks have blind flywheel holes. There cannot be oil seepage.

Series sorry for the texts, didn't know you run close to your limits!

I'll answer the questions I can now while I'm away from the engine. The oil level sensor is OEM for the 95 and on Monte Carlo Z34. Just a two pin level switch. The paint is whatever the powder coater used, but it's held up remarkably well.

My dad and a friend have convinced me to go with the shotgun approach. So I've got a new clutch master cylinder, throwout bearing, flywheel friction plate, and clutch on the way. .nl style here bitches. Just in a time crunch, and cannot afford to pull this Damn engine ever again.

Series8217 wrote:

The Dark Side of Will wrote:I think there just wasn't enough loctite on the bolt threads to seal against oil seepage. The tracks from the bolt heads are the only evidence of anything causative that I've seen in the pics.

Are you talking about the flywheel bolts? 60 degree V6 cranks have blind flywheel holes. There cannot be oil seepage.

Maybe there was oil or schmutz down in the holes that was squeezed out when the bolts were installed. The loctite would have been long dried by the time the engine was started. Obviously something made those tracks.

Aaron wrote:My dad and a friend have convinced me to go with the shotgun approach. So I've got a new clutch master cylinder, throwout bearing, flywheel friction plate, and clutch on the way. .nl style here bitches. Just in a time crunch, and cannot afford to pull this Damn engine ever again.

Not going to replace the slave?
The TOB's have a nylon sleeve to slide on the steel sleeve in the transmission and typically come with a very tiny amount of a light grease inside in a shallow ID groove. Do not add any additional grease, as it will just collect clutch dust and turn into mud, making the pedal harder to push and risking holding the TOB away from the throw out fingers.
DO use grease on the throw out fingers where they touch the bearing... lot of contact load at those points. Don't go overboard, though, as excess grease at that location will also turn into clutch dust mud.

Have you examined the throw out shaft & bushings?

Obviously you need a new flywheel friction surface and pressure plate due to heat and wear. Due to the possibility of oi contamination, you need a new clutch disk. You should have a new TOB with a new PP. You said you were having problems with the clutch hydraulics, so the new cylinder(s) is warranted. I don't see any of that as throwing parts .nl style.

HOWEVER, I think the expectation that you'll never pull the engine again may be naive.

The Dark Side of Will wrote: HOWEVER, I think the expectation that you'll never pull the engine again may be naive.

Agreed.... especially with that Fidanza time bomb in there

The Dark Side of Will wrote:
Guru: Did CN at least give you your money back?

Last I knew the owner was still waiting for a refund from Clutch Net...

Not much news, I got the TOB, clutch master, and flywheel friction plate in. I installed those, now just waiting on the clutch. Flywheel looked good from the naked eye, just going to install it with lock washers and a heavy dose of locktite. Also added a connector for my piggyback, as every time I've neededicated to pull the motor I've had to cut the wires. Now I can just disconnect it.

Aaron wrote:Not much news, I got the TOB, clutch master, and flywheel friction plate in. I installed those, now just waiting on the clutch. Flywheel looked good from the naked eye, just going to install it with lock washers and a heavy dose of locktite. Also added a connector for my piggyback, as every time I've neededicated to pull the motor I've had to cut the wires. Now I can just disconnect it.

You don't need lock washers on the flywheel (and it's probably a bad idea on aluminum)... Make sure the holes are thoroughly cleaned out via wire brush & brake cleaner/mineral spirits/Isopropyl alcohol (or all three sequentially). Then use blue loctite on the bolts and make sure they're torqued correctly. You didn't have problems with the flywheel bolts last time, despite getting the flywheel pretty hot, so you shouldn't need any special measures this time.

Do remember that, like Steven said, that Fidanza is a time bomb... it's not a matter of *if* you have problems with it, it's a matter of how soon.

Got everything wrapped up and ready to install tonight, along with the Bully Stage 4 clutch. Motor goes back in tomorrow!

Started right up but it's not running quite right. Seems almost like the firing order is off. I checked the plug wires about 36 times however and they are correct. Tomorrow I'll diagnose it further.

It's also not pulling as much vacuum as it used to. I don't think have any vacuum leaks but that'd explain a few things so I'll check those tomorrow too.

Anyone know if I can scan ses codes on a 95 obd1.5 by grounding the aldl pin with the ignition on like I could with the 91/93? I don't have a scanner and can't really get the car to an auto parts store. Thanks!