3800sc powered Lemons racecar

[mimtbr]

Gents,
I'm building an 88 Fiero with Series II 3800sc for 24hr. of Lemons racing. No street, only road racing.
My question, what would be the best trans option?
I have the stock fiero 282. I also have a 282 from a HO quad 4, but unfortunately don't have the diff/final drive...Also noticed this does'nt fit the 3800 bellhousing.
The gearing on an F23 from Saturn VUE looks much better. However, that' is a different bellhousing.
Would an F23 vue with the 60deg. bellhousing be the best option? Found tons of Vue boxes, but can't find a F23 from a 60deg. V6...Grand AM?

[Series8217]

You can swap the bellhousing from your Fiero 282 onto a Quad 4 282. Verify the gear ratios -- some of them had a very short (3.77) 1st gear. Since you won't use 1st gear at the track, it probably doesn't matter. There are also two final drive ratios: 3.61 and 3.94.

The F23 had a GM metric bellhousing (60-degree V6, 3800 V6 FWD, etc) in the 2000-2002 Cavalier and Sunfire with the 2200 OHV motor (not the 2.2 Ecotec --- look at the listing carefully as there was some overlap on model years). You can swap the F23 bellhousing from the Cavalier/Sunfire onto any of the other F23 gearboxes, but you will need Kent Moore J-44388 to select the shims for the side bearings, the spacing of which will be different when you change the bellhousing. If you don't maintain the proper preload, the bearings will fail prematurely.

[Emc209i]

All the tools for the F23 are cheap and easy to use. Don't let the shim selector scare you away. Check Ebay, I picked up all the stuff for nothing back in the day.

Assembly pallet

Complete tool kit and shim selector

They don't take up much space and you've got 'em for whenever you need 'em. Especially if you plan to race the transmission. The F23 is much nicer than the old transmission, and plenty available. You're just looking in the wrong vehicle, its not in the Grand Am.

Try opening a 282 and then open an F23. Big difference.

[mimtbr]

Thanks for your help!
What lead to the dig was the search for a LSD on the 282.
Then I saw this:
http://www.fiero.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/087296.html

Fiero Quad4 HO F23 (MG3) F23 (M86/M94)
Gear/Speed at 5200 Gear/Speed at 5200 Saturn Vue 04-07 Chevrolet Cavalier
1 3.5 29 3.5 27 3.58 23 3.58 26
2 2.05 50 2.05 46 2.02 42 2.02 46
3 1.38 75 1.38 68 1.35 62 1.35 70
4 0.94 109 1.03 91 0.98 86 0.98 96
5 0.72 138 0.8 117 0.81 104 0.61 154
FD 3.61 3.94 4.41 3.94

Tire
225/50-15
23.9 "

Quaife Diff
QDF17B

I found two F23's local for $150 and $220, so that looks like the way to go!
Any plate diffs available for the F23?

[Series8217]

Any plate diffs available for the F23?

Not that I'm aware of. Quaife makes a Torsen. Why do you think you need an LSD?

[mimtbr]

Why do you think you need an LSD?

I'm thinking dual duty. Lemons and a rally clunker class that's been kicked around.
2400# 240hp/280tq mid-engine should work on gravel. My last car was 2450# 210hp fwd.

Anyone here used the Vue F23 for race or rally?

[Emc209i]

Then I saw this:
http://www.fiero.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/087296.html

Yeah, that would be me.

This is a picture of the helical Quife QDF17B I installed into the transmission I used to make that tutorial. It does not see racing applications other than the occasional street drag or drag strip pass.

[Series8217]

I'm thinking dual duty. Lemons and a rally clunker class that's been kicked around.

Nice.

2400# 240hp/280tq mid-engine should work on gravel. My last car was 2450# 210hp fwd.

Agreed.

It's not going to be 2400# with a rally cage though

[mimtbr]

Yeah, that would be me.
This is a picture of the helical Quife QDF17B I installed into the transmission I used to make that tutorial. It does not see racing applications other than the occasional street drag or drag strip pass.

Very nice. And it's holding up to the v8? How many passes and street miles do you put on it? What ratios do you have? I know it's used in many Opel, however, not models that were raced/rallied.

Also, this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQik057778U

2400# 240hp/280tq mid-engine should work on gravel. My last car was 2450# 210hp fwd.

Agreed.

It's not going to be 2400# with a rally cage though

Maybe, Maybe not. I added alot more tube to make it FIA compliant (Rally America) above Lemons rules. It's 1.75 x 0.94', so not light, but I cut a ton of stuff out. Trunk, Doors, bumpers. If it's close, I will be happy.

[Emc209i]

Very nice. And it's holding up to the v8? How many passes and street miles do you put on it? What ratios do you have? I know it's used in many Opel, however, not models that were raced/rallied.

Yes. I put a solid double line of tire tracks down a nearby street from a stop with a clutch dump. I took a video of it but it got lost in translation years ago. The V8 put down 381 torque at that time. It gets driven hard, just not abused. It has the stock Cavalier ratios. However, a member here beat the living shit out of his for years without failure behind a 500 wheel torque turbo 3800. He hasn't been around recently but last I heard the transmission was still in one piece. And we watched him snap axles and sheer all of the flywheel bolts without transmission failure. The F23 is a tough little transaxle, you shouldn't have any problems with a stockish 3800.

Speaking of which, you know you can put down 300 wheel hp with some pretty simple mods right? Cam and a pulley will put you over 300.

[mimtbr]

Yes. I put a solid double line of tire tracks down a nearby street from a stop with a clutch dump. I took a video of it but it got lost in translation years ago. The V8 put down 381 torque at that time. It gets driven hard, just not abused. It has the stock Cavalier ratios. However, a member here beat the living shit out of his for years without failure behind a 500 wheel torque turbo 3800. He hasn't been around recently but last I heard the transmission was still in one piece. And we watched him snap axles and sheer all of the flywheel bolts without transmission failure. The F23 is a tough little transaxle, you shouldn't have any problems with a stockish 3800.

Speaking of which, you know you can put down 300 wheel hp with some pretty simple mods right? Cam and a pulley will put you over 300.

I'm convinced. That's the kind of perspective I was looking for! Does the drop to 5th seem like a big gap on your cavalier ratio box? I guess the highway gear.

I always hated the 282 gearing. The HO Quad4 box was much better at using the higher RPM's of that engine. I was pissed I lost the Final Drive for that box, untill I found out it did'nt fit the V6 anyway.

So a F23 cavalier/sunfire box with VUE guts looks like the direction.
Yes, I'm aware of the pulley change.
Thanks!
Build photos:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/38676208@ ... 8183769013

[Emc209i]

Pictures look good. Fifth gear never felt out of the ordinary. Just a normal overdrive gear for the highway at regular cruising speeds. Never took it on a high speed run where I needed fifth gear - I didn't want to crash and die.

[draven]

Pictures look good. Fifth gear never felt out of the ordinary. Just a normal overdrive gear for the highway at regular cruising speeds. Never took it on a high speed run where I needed fifth gear - I didn't want to crash and die.

Did you swap out bellhousings for the higher final drive? One could infer that you did from above, but just making sure...

I'm bouncing back and forth between the F23 vs F40 e.g. time/effort to swap bellhousings, build mounts, and shift bracket vs cost of additional hardware to get the F40 installed.

[Emc209i]

Did you swap out bellhousings for the higher final drive?

No. I only opened the case to install the LSD and look for any wear. The car was an absolute pleasure to drive with the Cavalier/Sunfire ratios. The difference in the throwout bearing is the biggest difference. I had absolutely no complaints with the ratios, but again; I wasn't doing any competitive driving, just driving it around town to weed out any issues and some abuse to rule out any potential problems with the swap I did.

I daily a six speed bimmer, and it's nice having the double overdrive, although completely unnecessary other than for a fuel economy stand point. I can get 32 mpg on the highway in a 4,000lb vehicle and a V8, neat. There's novelty and some fuel savings to be had with F40. But the cost of the damn thing nulls any fuel savings. And then there's reliability, we've already seen several fail in Fiero's, swaps that are less than five years old. With the F23, you're into the swap for less than $500, and if it ever breaks, another transmission costs ~$150 at the wrecking yard. Slap it in and go another 100k miles. Putting all of the money required for the F40 into a Fiero doesn't make any sense either.

Draven, who cares if you have six speeds if a 3800 with a four speed can blow your doors off, lol? Just another perspective. I think a five speed fits into the period correctness of a Fiero perfectly and will do the job nicely.

[mimtbr]

I daily a six speed bimmer, and it's nice having the double overdrive, although completely unnecessary other than for a fuel economy stand point. I can get 32 mpg on the highway in a 4,000lb vehicle and a V8, neat. There's novelty and some fuel savings to be had with F40. But the cost of the damn thing nulls any fuel savings. And then there's reliability, we've already seen several fail in Fiero's, swaps that are less than five years old. With the F23, you're into the swap for less than $500, and if it ever breaks, another transmission costs ~$150 at the wrecking yard. Slap it in and go another 100k miles. Putting all of the money required for the F40 into a Fiero doesn't make any sense either.

Draven, who cares if you have six speeds if a 3800 with a four speed can blow your doors off, lol? Just another perspective. I think a five speed fits into the period correctness of a Fiero perfectly and will do the job nicely.

This is the EXACT type of perspective I was looking for.
My daily is also a 6speed BMW 135 twinturbo 6cycl on a COBB tune...345whp to the rear wheels, unfortunately it is a heavy pig.
If this Lemon fiero with a $700 rollcage, a $600 3800sc engine, and a $250 gearbox and be smooth and quick on the track, I'll be very happy.
If it does this well, THEN I'll spring for the quaife and some new gravel tires, and enter LSPR or STPR next year.