Streets of Willow

Series8217 · Post by **Series8217** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:33 am

I went to Streets of Willow (same track SCC used for their Ultimate Street Car Challenge this year) on Sunday and had a blast. It was my first time on a track.
The first session, my car was oversteering like mad. One of the driving instructors suggested I remove a rear swaybar endlink to disable the bar and see how it feels. The back end was much more controllable after that. I'm going to need wider tires in the rear before I will use it again.
Any suggestions for improving overall traction? Alignment settings for an 88?
On the motor side of things, the Isuzu + 3.4 DOHC combination seems made for that track. Besides starting in 1st gear and getting into 3rd sometimes right out of the bowl (can get up to ~100 or a little more if there's no idiots braking early for the esses), I did the course in 2nd gear and never got out of the powerband. I had more power than a lot of cars out there and was keeping up with a JDM 2005 Fairlady Z on the front straight. The fucker was drag racing me though when he should have been letting me pass; he was soooo slow in the turns. Oh well, I certainly wont be driving in the beginner group next time.
I only had two problems with the motor: lifter tapping and an ignition problem for one lap. After sustained mid to high RPM for a lap or two one of the lifters on the front bank starts tapping like crazy. It turns to a buzz at high RPMs instead of getting pumped up by the oil pressure. I just changed the oil the day before. I checked it again after the lifter was tapping and it looks fine. If I take it easy for two laps the lifter will pump back up. I ended up just driving the hell out of it anyway, hopefully I didn't damage my cam, but I don't really care about the lifter since I'll probably have to replace it anyway.. unless anyone here knows of something I can do to stop this from happening.
Any other track setup advice would be appreciated.

Kohburn · Post by **Kohburn** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:09 pm

its got to be an oil starvation issue

I'd love to look into an improved oil drian back system - even if it meant going external fromt he base of the cam carriers

Series8217 · Post by **Series8217** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:11 pm

Any other possibilities? I would think if I was starving the motor for oil for 15 minutes continuously I would have more than just one lifter tapping, as well as many other problems.

Kohburn · Post by **Kohburn** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:36 pm

Series8217 wrote:Any other possibilities? I would think if I was starving the motor for oil for 15 minutes continuously I would have more than just one lifter tapping, as well as many other problems.

well not necessarilly starving the whole engine so much as the lifter galley.. but i don't know that much about the dohc oiling system..

stimpy · Post by **stimpy** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:02 pm

Glad to see you made it Saturday night.

Guess who won the coilovers? :afrocool:

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:40 pm

Ha. This almost makes me laugh. Remember when you and I were talking about the lower end oil starvation and ways to fix it?

Well together we had 3 solutions, that when put together would make for a problem free setup as far as oiling is concerned.

The first was 180* bearings. Good idea, with few if any negative side affects.

The second was a higher volume pan. Also a good idea with very little side effects (More weight).

The last one you suggested was to port all of the drain back holes. Now you did this, a lot too. Do you remember me voicing my concerns about doing this without extra oil capacity? Well I did, and you pretty much called me a fucking idiot. Well my reasoning was this. The DOHC has a HUGE pump, for a reason. To keep the massive and complex valvetrain lubricated at high RPMs. Now my opinion on it was that they looked at the heads, added a huge pump, and essentially forgot about the lower end, when they should have added an extra quart capacity. In taking care of the bearings, I told you I think you will be risking the cams/lifters/valvetrain by porting the drainbacks. Problem is, at continuous high RPM, now you have so much flow back to the pan, that the heads are getting starved. Basically, oil is flowing back down much faster than it is getting pumped up. I honestly think you may be running into this problem. Lifter tick is semi-normal on high mileage 3.4s after a hard run. Mine used to do it very slightly after a run to 100+ shifting after 7, but it was still quiet and went right away. Your's sounds a lot more serious, if it is that loud.

If I were you, I would SERIOUSLY consider taking your pan off, having about another quart section welded to a side (Or both), powdercoating it, and putting it back on. For $100-$200 max, you have IMHO a bulletproof oiling system. And I will all but guarantee your lifters will be silent.

But if you won't do this, you may just have to deal with it. Make sure you have an oil cooler, may want to look into a air/water cooled external OIL cooler, also make sure you have Mobil 1 and a Pure 1 filter, and make sure you have it at 100% capacity, full to the max line.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:43 pm

There is a reason the LT5 has an even higher flowing pump and a 12 quart oil capacity wirh synthetic oil from the factory.

Shaun41178(2) · Post by **Shaun41178(2)** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:58 pm

what weight oil are you using?

that could also be a problem and easily curable.

I think its awesome you took it out and drove the piss out of it. I wish you had some in car video of it too to just make it oh so much sweeter.

Big props for busting on your car for an afternoon. big thumbs up from me. I unfortuneately dont' have any suggestions on the suspension to get it to handle better. Settings for the track probably wouldnt' be all that wise for the street.

I do say check over your components for worn or loose parts though.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:02 pm

Shaun41178(2) wrote:I think its awesome you took it out and drove the piss out of it. I wish you had some in car video of it too to just make it oh so much sweeter.

Big props for busting on your car for an afternoon. big thumbs up from me.

I agree 100%.

Series8217 · Post by **Series8217** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:12 pm

aaron wrote:The last one you suggested was to port all of the drain back holes. Now you did this, a lot too. Do you remember me voicing my concerns about doing this without extra oil capacity? Well I did, and you pretty much called me a fucking idiot. Well my reasoning was this. The DOHC has a HUGE pump, for a reason. To keep the massive and complex valvetrain lubricated at high RPMs. Now my opinion on it was that they looked at the heads, added a huge pump, and essentially forgot about the lower end, when they should have added an extra quart capacity. In taking care of the bearings, I told you I think you will be risking the cams/lifters/valvetrain by porting the drainbacks. Problem is, at continuous high RPM, now you have so much flow back to the pan, that the heads are getting starved. Basically, oil is flowing back down much faster than it is getting pumped up. I honestly think you may be running into this problem. Lifter tick is semi-normal on high mileage 3.4s after a hard run. Mine used to do it very slightly after a run to 100+ shifting after 7, but it was still quiet and went right away. Your's sounds a lot more serious, if it is that loud.

:stfu: I still think you're a dumbass! Lifters don't get pumped up by unpressurized oil, do you understand?

Series8217 · Post by **Series8217** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:16 pm

stimpy wrote:Glad to see you made it Saturday night.

Guess who won the coilovers? :afrocool:

Thanks stimpy! Right on with the coilovers. Once you get your suspension tuned up real well we'll have to make a run to the track.

Shaun41178(2) wrote:what weight oil are you using?

that could also be a problem and easily curable.

10W-30. I realize its way too thick cold but 30 seems to get the right oil prsesure when warm. Now that I think of it though, I am not running an oil cooler right now and that 30 could be getting way hot (coolant temp is fine though). I may have to run 35 or 40 until I get the cooler. I'll get a decent 0W-35 or 0W-40 synthetic next time I change it.

By the way, I do have some video footage from outside the car when I was missing all the apexes

I'll post it when I get the cable for my digital video camera. They wouldn't allow passengers or handheld vid cams so I couldn't get any from in the car. I'll build a mount for the camera before I go out again so I can have it running all the time.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:21 pm

Series8217 wrote: :stfu: I still think you're a dumbass! Lifters don't get pumped up by unpressurized oil, do you understand?

Wow good argument, that toally proved me wrong...except it didn't.

When there isn't enough oil even if it is presurized it can still cause starvation. My Z34 had perfect oil pressure, and still spun a bearing. You said just then that your oil pressure was right on as well. So you may have saved your bearings, but you might have fucked up your lifters.

Series8217 · Post by **Series8217** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:37 pm

aaron wrote:
Series8217 wrote: :stfu: I still think you're a dumbass! Lifters don't get pumped up by unpressurized oil, do you understand?
Wow good argument, that toally proved me wrong...except it didn't.

When there isn't enough oil even if it is presurized it can still cause starvation. My Z34 had perfect oil pressure, and still spun a bearing. You said just then that your oil pressure was right on as well. So you may have saved your bearings, but you might have fucked up your lifters.

Aaron, your argument was that oil drainback caused the problem. Oil drainback improves the engines ability to provide pressurized oil because it allows oil to get back to the pump. You can smother the lifters in as much unpressurized oil as you want; they will NOT pump up.

Shaun41178(2) · Post by **Shaun41178(2)** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:09 pm

How many miles on your engine?

If you are going to be turning continuous high rpm liek when racing, I would drop in some 20/50. You need the extra protection when over 5k rpm for a long period of time.

I have got 87k miles on my 2.8 and I use 20/50 when I run it hard. Which is all the time. No problems yet.

My old fiero I ran 10w40 and at just over 100k failed. oil pressure got too low at idle, lost a rod bearing.

My oil pressure with hard miles on it fully hot is at 40 psi when idling. 60 psi cruising.

Series8217 · Post by **Series8217** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:26 pm

Shaun41178(2) wrote:How many miles on your engine?

I'm up around 900 miles now I think.

Shaun41178(2) · Post by **Shaun41178(2)** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:33 pm

10/40 with an oil cooler for race day. And don't use that stock oil cooler from GM as I doubt that helps all that much. I would try and get a nice aftermarket air to oil? unit. Much more surface area. Or use the stock oil cooler in conjunction with the aftermarket.

Also if you can, find a way to get hte pan bigger if possible. Or on race day, put like an extra 1/2 quart in the motor to a full qt. While pushing it hard in the high rpm, quite a bit of oil will be in the top of hte motor. Won't have to worry about it all being down in the pan and the level too high. Just remember to take some out afterwards.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:46 pm

Shaun41178(2) wrote:10/40 with an oil cooler for race day. And don't use that stock oil cooler from GM as I doubt that helps all that much.

You'd be quite surprised, it lowered the oil temps on a 3.1 significantly after 5 HARD min of driving. Like 0-100 over and over again, hitting redline every gear. The car had an aftermarket temp gauge, and we recorded the rate of the oil heating up, the highest it got, and the rate of it cooling down once it was closed throttle. This was with a stock 3.1 with a 3.4 cooler ghetto rigged on. I don't remember any of the numbers, this was 4 years ago on an ex-friend's car, but I was certainly surprised.

I would try and get a nice aftermarket air to oil? unit. Much more surface area. Or use the stock oil cooler in conjunction with the aftermarket.

I agree with this part, but if you're gonna use it in conjunction, make sure to use the factory one as the first step..hehe

Also if you can, find a way to get hte pan bigger if possible. Or on race day, put like an extra 1/2 quart in the motor to a full qt. While pushing it hard in the high rpm, quite a bit of oil will be in the top of hte motor. Won't have to worry about it all being down in the pan and the level too high. Just remember to take some out afterwards.

I agree. He'd have to build the pan himself though, or have it done custom. His motor has like fully ported drainbacks in an effort to not starve the lower end, and IMHO I think it is draining back too fast, essentially starving the top end. Also, it doesn't have to be lifter tick. It could be the cams, valves, anything up there. I think an extra quart on the pan would solve ALL OF your problems, without any real negative effects.

He could also be starving the pump from all of the cornering as well.

Series8217 · Post by **Series8217** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:34 am

aaron wrote:
Shaun41178(2) wrote:10/40 with an oil cooler for race day. And don't use that stock oil cooler from GM as I doubt that helps all that much.
You'd be quite surprised, it lowered the oil temps on a 3.1 significantly after 5 HARD min of driving. Like 0-100 over and over again, hitting redline every gear. The car had an aftermarket temp gauge, and we recorded the rate of the oil heating up, the highest it got, and the rate of it cooling down once it was closed throttle. This was with a stock 3.1 with a 3.4 cooler ghetto rigged on. I don't remember any of the numbers, this was 4 years ago on an ex-friend's car, but I was certainly surprised.

I would try and get a nice aftermarket air to oil? unit. Much more surface area. Or use the stock oil cooler in conjunction with the aftermarket.
I agree with this part, but if you're gonna use it in conjunction, make sure to use the factory one as the first step..hehe

Also if you can, find a way to get hte pan bigger if possible. Or on race day, put like an extra 1/2 quart in the motor to a full qt. While pushing it hard in the high rpm, quite a bit of oil will be in the top of hte motor. Won't have to worry about it all being down in the pan and the level too high. Just remember to take some out afterwards.
I agree. He'd have to build the pan himself though, or have it done custom. His motor has like fully ported drainbacks in an effort to not starve the lower end, and IMHO I think it is draining back too fast, essentially starving the top end. Also, it doesn't have to be lifter tick. It could be the cams, valves, anything up there. I think an extra quart on the pan would solve ALL OF your problems, without any real negative effects.

He could also be starving the pump from all of the cornering as well.

Yeah Aaron, I agree. The factory oil cooler does make a difference. Oil to water does work really well, it stabilizes the oil temp with the water temp. I will think about running an external cooler when I get a scoop on the right side quarter panel.
I still think you're out of your mind thinking improved oil drainback is going to hurt anything. You also do realize I just removed casting flash and matched things to the gaskets right? I brought it within spec to how the passages were DESIGNED and might even be on stock motors that had less flash along the parting lines when cast.
I'm even still getting oil out of the breather holes sometimes. Those fucking covers are STILL filling up with oil. If I rev it with my finger over the breather I do feel suction, so I'm pretty sure its not blowby. Nicely honed cylinders and freshly seated rings too anyway.
BTW its definitely lifter tick. Sounds like every other lifter I've heard tapping.
I was thinking also that it could be caused by cornering, but then I realized that my first time out it was doing it, and we weren't going faster than a casual drive around the track. Just happened to be leaving it in second gear so I could concentrate on driving.
I'm gonna switch to thicker synthetic and see what happens.
Any of the more experienced engine folks have input on this?

Kohburn · Post by **Kohburn** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:14 am

shouldn't a thinner oil drain back faster?

The Dark Side of Will · Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:38 am

Shaun41178(2) wrote:10/40 with an oil cooler for race day. And don't use that stock oil cooler from GM as I doubt that helps all that much. I would try and get a nice aftermarket air to oil? unit. Much more surface area. Or use the stock oil cooler in conjunction with the aftermarket.

The stock GM cooler is an oil/water unit. They don't need to be big to do a lot of good. Water sinks a lot more heat than air.